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Moving out of BRUFX

edited March 4 in Fund Discussions
.....And the lovely and bigly fabulous Powers That Be at the Bruce Fund will not allow a transfer-in-kind. These are T-IRA shares. I just got the word from Schwab by email.

Without even getting an answer as to WHY the lovely BRUFX doinks will not let this happen, it's clear that what they want us to do is to SELL X number (ALL!) shares and receive a check, then we'll have to put that check ourselves into the new T-IRA Schwab account. We had to deal with this nonsense before with MassMutual. I understand that we'll have 60 days to get the money BACK into a different T-IRA account. Bruce bites it all.

Simplest thing in the world, but the rules allow the fund companies to make it complicated. Gigantic piles of stinky dooky.
The plan had been---very simply--- to move the Bruce shares to Schwab, then exchange them into WBALX.

Comments

  • BRUFX can be purchased only directly thru them. That's why you can't transfer it to Schwab (or any other brokerage firm.)
  • edited March 4

    BRUFX can be purchased only directly thru them. That's why you can't transfer it to Schwab (or any other brokerage firm.)

    Yes. That's clear. But WHY? An internal Bruce decision for their own convenience? I'd just like to hear someone admit that. "We'll take your money, but if you ever want to move it away from our control, we'll require you to jump through hoops." Shit. Why do so many others keep this simple and easy? How are THEY able to do it the EASY way?
  • edited March 4
    It is all about money. If BRUFX is not on Schwab mutual fund platform (both no transaction fee and transaction fee), you cannot transfer-in-kind to Schwab. Mutual funds pay the brokerages a fee to be listed on their mutual fund platform. Sometimes it amounts up to 0.5% of the management fee. I checked first before I consolidated my holdings to my brokerages.

    Many mutual funds refuse to pay and they attract fewer $. T. Rowe Price used to be on Transaction-fee only at Fidelity and Vanguard. Now they are on their competitor’s no-transaction fee platforms.
  • @Sven
    Yes, I see that Schwab and TRP have some sort of affiliation. Dunno how old the arrangement is. And thanks for your explanation.:)
  • The folks at PVCMX explained this all to me in some detail when they opened up.

    The fees and restrictions are different for each platform, but are expensive. Small funds have to start somewhere so they usually pick the place that charges them the least. As AUM grows they are probably more attractive to the platforms that previously didn't want them, and eventually show up.
  • I would keep the fund where it is if it cannot be transfer. I have several funds that cannot be transfer. In one case I sold it and another equivalent fund/ETF.

    Life has gotten much easier since our consideration, especially in tax return filing.
  • Sven said:

    I would keep the fund where it is if it cannot be transfer. I have several funds that cannot be transfer. In one case I sold it and another equivalent fund/ETF.

    Life has gotten much easier since our consideration, especially in tax return filing.

    But there must be an alternative way to get this done---- just the way we got it done with MassMutual: BRUFX would ostensibly send my wife a check, and the tax law, if I recall correctly--- gives us 2 months to reinsert that cash into a different IRA. That way, we avoid the big REDEMPTION, which would be premature, involving a big stupid 10% penalty....
  • @Crash, you may have to just do that - cash out BRUFX and use 60-day rollover window to deposit the check in Schwab a/c - use electronic deposit or drop by Schwab office.
  • @Crash, you may have to just do that - cash out BRUFX and use 60-day rollover window to deposit the check in Schwab a/c - use electronic deposit or drop by Schwab office.

    +1. Appreciate you confirming that, yogi.
  • beebee
    edited March 4
    @Crash,

    I moved 75% of my BRUFX holdings (Bruce converted shares to cash) then Fidelity executed a “trustee to trustee transfer” to Fidelity back in 2021.

    This was a HSA account at Bruce and I decided to move the majority of my HSA to Fidelity’s new HSA platform.

    I would explore a “Trustee to Trustee transfer” with both Bruce and the investment firm you are transferring to.

    Going to cash first at Bruce Fund is just a how transfers are done at Bruce since they are not listed on other platforms.

    I left a 25% allocation at Bruce knowing full well that if I moved 100% of my position the fund would have quadrupled the day after I transferred all shares.

    This fund’s long term results are stellar, but the short term - mid term performance test your patience.

    I support Bruce Fund’s spirited independence from the big boys, but I see the value Fidelity’s platform.
  • edited March 4
    Caution: You may be limited to doing such a within-60-days rollover only once every 365 days. It depends on what form of IRA is moving to what form of IRA.
    See pub 590a, p. 22. (Pub 590a for tax year 2022.)
    A direct fund-to-fund transfer of proceeds from sale of shares is better.
  • edited March 4
    @bee I have ceased to be impressed.
    "A trustee-to-trustee transfer is a transfer of assets from one retirement plan or account to another, facilitated by the two financial institutions involved in the transfer. It is the simplest way to transfer an IRA from one institution to another and does not trigger taxes. The transfer can be initiated by opening an IRA account at the new institution and contacting the original and new IRA providers to initiate the transfer."

    Is this not the very thing that CAN'T be done, because going to cash is necessary with the Bruce shares?
  • Caution: You may be limited to doing such a within-60-days rollover only once every 365 days. It depends on what form of IRA is moving to what form of IRA.
    See pub 590a, p. 22. (Pub 590a for tax year 2022.)
    A direct fund-to-fund transfer of proceeds from sale of shares is better.

    Schwab already holds my T-IRA. Still in TRP funds, moved over from TRP.

    I have learned that Bruce refuses the simple, streamlined sort of transfer. The Bruce stuff is wife's T-IRA and we'll be moving it into a different T-IRA, under the Schwab umbrella. That will be all the movement for 2024.

    Schwab is supposed to transfer over the $$$ in the TRP brokerage account too, but I don't see yet that it's been transferred. But that's a different kettle of fish, anyhow.
  • Crash said:

    Yes, I see that Schwab and TRP have some sort of affiliation. Dunno how old the arrangement is.

    The T. Rowe deal went into effect "on or about Feb. 1" [2022]. ... [The annual fee paid by TRP, anticipated to be around $10M] far surpasses the fees that other firms pay to be part of Schwab's OneSource. ... A T. Rowe Price spokeswoman says ... "Our I Class is now available at no-transaction-fee for RIAs who custody with Schwab. This share class is not currently available commission-free at any other custodian."
    RIABiz, April 22, 2022

    More generally, Schwab has created a second, cheaper platform (12-19 basis point fee vs. 40 basis points for OneSource) called INTF that 18 families including TRP participate in.
    https://advisorservices.schwab.com/institutional-no-transaction-fee

    The actual fee that TRP paid in 2022 (partial year) to Schwab was $5.9M. This was in addition to the usual platform fees paid to Schwab for shelf space. What TRP gets from Schwab is promotion of "actively managed T. Rowe Price mutual funds and ETFs to Schwab's clients and the clients of Registered Investment Advisors that custody assets at Schwab, and ... additional mutual fund and ETF marketing support". Schwab acknowledges the arrangement creates a conflict of interest (it benefits from pushing TRP funds).
    https://www.schwab.com/legal/financial-and-other-relationships#panel--text-44781
    sma3 said:

    The fees and restrictions are different for each platform, but are expensive.

    Unless a fund family is so popular that a brokerage finds value in offering the funds without charging a platform fee. Vanguard, D&C, Fidelity.

    Caution: You may be limited to doing such a within-60-days rollover only once every 365 days. It depends on what form of IRA is moving to what form of IRA.
    See pub 590a, p. 22. (Pub 590a for tax year 2022.)
    A direct fund-to-fund transfer of proceeds from sale of shares is better.

    The rule is actually pretty simple now. With the exception of Roth conversions, the one rollover a year limit is for all IRAs combined, regardless of form. Roth conversions are unlimited.
    You can make only one rollover from an IRA to another (or the same) IRA in any 1-year period regardless of the number of IRAs you own. The limit will apply by aggregating all of an individual's IRAs, including SEP and SIMPLE IRAs as well as traditional and Roth IRAs, effectively treating them as one IRA for purposes of the limit. However, trustee-to-trustee transfers between IRAs aren’t limited and rollovers from traditional IRAs to Roth IRAs (conversions) aren’t limited
    Pub 590a, p. 24
  • @msf: Thanks. I see I'll need to read further in 590a, as I am consolidating.
  • even vanguard has handcuffs on custody, see closed primecap funds.
  • My understanding regarding Primecap is that Vanguard will not allow you to open a new account, even at Vanguard, even by transferring shares. "The Fund is closed to new accounts for investors not enrolled in Vanguard Flagship Services® or Vanguard Personal Advisor Services®."
    VPMCX prospectus

    Does Vanguard prohibit transfer of shares into existing accounts outside of Vanguard?
  • yes, failed to move to fidelity custody in 2022. attempted entire holdings, all or nothing, for multi-client family. fidelity tried very hard, and would select them otherwise.
  • msf
    edited March 5
    To be clear, the family had existing Primecap accounts at Fidelity to which they would only be adding the transferred shares?

    FWIW, Vanguard refused to transfer shares I had of a closed fund (T-IRA) into another account at Vanguard (Roth IRA). Vanguard relented only when I pointed out that the transfer was to an existing Roth account - I would not be opening a new account.

    I have had a similar problem with shares of a fund in what became part of Legg Mason, and finally Franklin Templeton. Until FT took over, the fund family would only let me transfer shares if I satisfied the new account requirement at the receiving brokerage.

    Since these were institutional class shares, that meant I had to have $1M worth (or more).

    The restriction in both cases (Vanguard and Legg Mason) was essentially the same, and simple. Transferring shares to a new brokerage means opening a new account. You must meet the new account requirements - you don't get a pass just because you own shares in another account.

    It's not a question of custody.
  • there was nothing pre-existing at fidelity. all family member accounts had been consolidated at vanguard, including retirement. some institutional class shares, and admiral shares, were involved.
    even though there was more than sufficient liquidity to initiate (e.g., money market funds), there was no sequence in which all custody could be transferred intact (no fund changes, no tax impact) to fidelity.

    after the vanguard consolidation effort, there was also no interest in splitting holdings. so nothing moved.
  • @bee. "My guy" At Schwab is investigating BRUFX's willingness to do "trustee to trustee" transfer. So it IS an option. You're right.

    (But why must people--- like me--- find this stuff out through the BACK-door????? ) Ork!
  • "My guy" At Schwab is investigating BRUFX's willingness to do "trustee to trustee" transfer. So it IS an option.

    Is "your guy" just investigating, or has he confirmed with the Bruce Fund that they will allow you to create a new account (via transfer of shares) at Schwab?

    If he has actually confirmed that the Bruce Fund will facilitate a direct transfer of shares to Schwab, that would seem to call into question the premise of this thread:

    .....And the lovely and bigly fabulous Powers That Be at the Bruce Fund will not allow a transfer-in-kind. These are T-IRA shares. I just got the word from Schwab by email.

    Given that Schwab originally told you that it could not get the BRUFX shares transferred directly and now "your guy" there says that Schwab may be able do a direct transfer, then perhaps the problem is not with the Bruce Fund but with Schwab?

    Maybe the first contact didn't research this deeply enough. Or perhaps they did and this second investigation will reach the same conclusion. I'm sure you'll let us know how things turn out either way. Hoping for the best.
  • As I recall, my Fidelity trustee to trustee transfer from Bruce HSA to Fidelity HSA involved Bruce first converting BRUFX to cash and then completing the trustee to trustee transfer to Fidelity.
  • @Crash, I was confused reading all this and what you said on another thread, so I went looking. In the other thread you said you were transferring the Bruce fund to Schwab so you can cash it out there and buy a different fund. Is that still true or do you want the transfer in-kind to keep it. If cashing it out, I don't understand this to be a problem.
    WBALX Weitz Conserv Allocation
    Crash, did you come to a final decision regarding WBALX?
    Yes. We are moving (T-IRA) BRUFX under Schwab's umbrella, along with the taxable brokerage account and my own IRA. That was not going to be what we originally had decided to do. BRUFX is wife's IRA. After the move, we'll exchange BRUFX for shares of WBALX. It's not going to shoot the lights out, by design. But that's OK. It's about 50/50 stocks/bonds. More tame. That prospects might serve to counteract the volatility of the single stocks in the portfolio. Single stocks = 14% of portfolio now.
    Also looking for a seat at the table for (bonds) Weitz WCPNX.
  • ...The new prospect just uncovered for me would possibly allow to happen what @bee described, just above, here . If that can be done, I don't have to ever see the $$$. It can go, institution to institution. But it converts to cash along the way, and Schwab would receive it as an IRA. Somehow, this is different; no need for me to receive a paper check.

    Notwithstanding this "new" prospect, it just feels like such a simple transfer need not be so convoluted, no matter how it happens. If receiving a paper check can be obviated, then, .... OK. There ought to be a rule or regulation somewhere which would leave no doubts, requiring Fund A to simply, easily transfer the account to Fund B. Someone WANTS to make this difficult. And the congregation responded: "Amen."
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