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  • edited February 2020
    "carew388">@dtconroe Thanks again for your ongoing discussion of the numerous oef bond categories. How would BMPAX PMZAX and MTGAX fit into this discussion ?

    carew, all 3 of these funds could be considered conservative bond oefs, although each of them are from different bond categories--Intermediate Core bond, Non-traditional bond category, and Intermediate Core-Plus bond category. Depending on how you invest, you could consider them for safer roles in your portfolio. One of the purposes I have for this overall thread, is to introduce different bonds from different categories, so investors can hopefully better evaluate whether they are interested in any of the funds, from any of the categories. I am a pretty conservative investor and I currently own PMZIX, the institutional share class of PMZAX, in my traditional IRA portfolio. I have previously owned MTGAX in my portfolio, but I have never owned BMPAX. In the various categories I have offered up for discussion, there are some categories in which I don't own any of the funds, and there are some categories from which I own several of the funds discussed. You just have to decide if any of these funds, and any of these categories, fit your investing style and roles you define for your portfolio.

    Hopefully that answers your question, but if not, provide some additional information, and I will attempt to address your question.



  • Yes-thanks for your help !
  • edited February 2020
    Carew, since you asked about BMPAX, and I have not previously discussed this fund, I thought I might add a few comments. It is from the Intermediate Core Bond category, which is a little more in line with funds, that have higher investment grade holdings with low risk, in the intermediate duration category. It is almost exclusively devoted to securitized mortgages, with AA investment grade holdings, that M* categorizes as lower risk. It had a nice 6% total return in 2019, but historically the total return is much lower--not that different than other well known funds in that category. It seems to be a pretty conservative fund, and could provide some ballast and lower risk option in a conservative investors portfolio. BMPAX performance pattern is that it is a strong fund in down markets (2015 and 2018, etc), so it could be a nice fund if your portfolio is focusing on preservation of principal. Its Standard Deviation is below 2, bond holdings are strong investment grade holdings, and overall you can see the rationale for why M* rates this fund as a low risk fund in its category
  • Thanks for the information on BMPAX !
  • edited February 2020
    Schwab recommendations for Short Term Bond oefs are interesting. We are familiar with frequently discussed short term bond oefs like DBLSX and DHEIX, but neither of those funds made the Schwab recommendation list. The 2 short term bond oefs that Schwab recommends is:

    1. SDMZX, a short term bond oef from PGIM. This fund has a BBB portfolio rating, has a M* risk of above average, has a standard deviation of 1.15, a duration of 3.5 and expense ratio of .39%. Its portfolio has 36.4% in securitized holdings, 20.25% in corporate holdings, 19.4% in government holdings, and about 14.5% in derivatives, and about 9% in cash and equivalents. Its 1and 3 year total return of 6.47%/3.85%.

    2. PSHYX, a short term bond oef from Pioneer. This fund has a BBB portfolio, has a M* risk of low, has a standard deviation of .79, and a duration of 1.76, and an expense ratio of .46%. Its portfolio has 62% in securitized holdings, 29% in corporate holdings, 6% in government holdings, and 3% in cash and equivalents. Its 1and 3 year total return of 4.87/2.81.

    Comments: It appears PSHYX is very low risk and has some similarities to DBLSX. SDMZX is a higher risk short term bond oef, but is well diversified with a low standard deviation, but its total return appears to be related to its longer duration holdings of 3.5, which is much longer than most funds in this category. SDMZX has a higher than average yield distribution, which makes it more attractive for dividend harvesters. For me personally, SDMZX is a very interesting option in this category. I sold DBLSX at the end of 2019 because I wanted a little better total return, and so I replaced it with DHEAX. I do think SDMZX provides that better total return and looks like a nice complement to DHEAX.
  • @dtconroe : Thanks for update & will check out your comments.
    Derf
  • edited February 2020
    I am at Schwab and all too often fail to research there. Thanks for the update. I will look into those funds. DBLSX is my oldest bond OEF holding. recently I have been thinking about selling some. But with 50% equities now I like the relative safety of DBLSX.

    Is Schwab selling DHEIX yet?

    Edit: PSHYX is Pioneer Short Term Income fund.
  • DHEAX beats DBLSX for 1 month and all the way to 3 years (chart).
    DHEAX has also better Sharpe + Sortino (PortVis)
    Both funds invest at high % in securitized/MBS, both have mostly IG(investment grade) bond rating.

    Just my opinion: DHEAX is a better fund
  • edited February 2020
    SDMZX appears somewhat unique. It is named a multi-purpose fund with low duration. I would say DBLSX and SDMZX are not directly comparable. DBLSX focus is on low duration.
  • edited February 2020
    Correction (as long as the above analysis is correct) : DHEAX WAS the better fund.

    The daily obsession with some posters (especially one) looking back at prior performance and deeming a given fund as the better/best is mind-numbing.

    Had a poster, THREE YEARS AGO, stated that DHEAX will perform better than another similar fund over the next three years, and it did, now that would be something.

    But truth be told, the first post about DHEIX/DHEAX that I EVER SAW on on ANY board by posters who now hail it as the better/best over the last three years was made within the last TWO months.

    The last TWO months.

    ----------------------------------
    To wit...

    This MFO search history for DHEAX shows for that VintageFreak and willmatt72 posted about it in April-June 2019.

    ALL other posts about it, including by those who hail it NOW as the better/best, were made between Dec 2019 and today.

    https://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/search?Search=dheax

    This MFO search history for DHEIX shows for that willmatt72 posted about it in Feb 2018.

    ALL other posts about it, including by those who hail it NOW as the better/best, were made between Dec 2019 and today.

    https://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/search?Search=dheix
  • @Gary1952, I believe Diamond Hill funds have a transfer fee at Schwab. One reason I don't consider them.
  • MikeM said:

    @Gary1952, I believe Diamond Hill funds have a transfer fee at Schwab. One reason I don't consider them.

    DHEAX is NTF $2500 min, with short term redemption fee and it appears that DHEIX is not sold by SCHWAB. But I would guess it would have the $49.95 fee attached if it was sold.

  • stillers said:

    Correction (as long as the above analysis is correct) : DHEAX WAS the better fund.

    The daily obsession with some posters (especially one) looking back at prior performance and deeming a given fund as the better/best is mind-numbing.

    Had a poster, THREE YEARS AGO, stated that DHEAX will perform better than another similar fund over the next three years, and it did, now that would be something.

    But truth be told, the first post about DHEIX/DHEAX that I EVER SAW on on ANY board by posters who now hail it as the better/best over the last three years was made within the last TWO months.

    The last TWO months.

    ----------------------------------
    To wit...

    This MFO search history for DHEAX shows for that VintageFreak and willmatt72 posted about it in April-June 2019.

    ALL other posts about it, including by those who hail it NOW as the better/best, were made between Dec 2019 and today.

    https://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/search?Search=dheax

    This MFO search history for DHEIX shows for that willmatt72 posted about it in Feb 2018.

    ALL other posts about it, including by those who hail it NOW as the better/best, were made between Dec 2019 and today.

    https://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/search?Search=dheix

    DHEAX has been discussed well back into 2019 at M*. Not sure if you are referring to MFO only.

  • edited February 2020
    DHEAX has been discussed well back into 2019 at M*. Not sure if you are referring to MFO only.

    ================================

    Well, that's the thing about the internet...

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEAX was on 10/30/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&collapse_discussion=true

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEIX was by yogi in a Barron's Summary on 04/29/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&page=2&collapse_discussion=true

    The majority of posts about them, here and there, have been in the last TWO months, yet posters like to celebrate them (and hundreds of other funds) as though they knew about them/owned them during the period they refer to them as the better/best.

    So what's your point again?
  • "Gary1952">I am at Schwab and all too often fail to research there. Thanks for the update. I will look into those funds. DBLSX is my oldest bond OEF holding. recently I have been thinking about selling some. But with 50% equities now I like the relative safety of DBLSX.

    Is Schwab selling DHEIX yet?

    Edit: PSHYX is Pioneer Short Term Income fund.

    Gary, thanks for the correction--I edited my post above. I had about 10 different short term bond oefs I had on a watchlist, and I accidentally referenced the fund as Putnam instead of Pioneer, when I was reviewing the information on them. Putnam also has a very good short term bond oef, but it was not one of the funds that Schwab had on its recommendation list.

  • "Gary1952">SDMZX appears somewhat unique. It is named a multi-purpose fund with low duration. I would say DBLSX and SDMZX are not directly comparable. DBLSX focus is on low duration.

    Gary, as I said in my comments above about these 2 Schwab recommendations, I consider PSHYX similar to DBLSX, but SDMZX is a longer duration bond oef. I would put SDMZX in a category more similar to FIJEX--more aggressive short term bond oefs. I have read a number of posts, in which SDMZX and FIJEX have similarities to some multisector bond oefs with their diversification in their holdings. If you want to pair a couple of short term bond oefs, that are different from each other, I would think a fund like SDMZX would be a good complement to a less risky fund like DHEAX and DBLSX.

  • edited February 2020
    Regarding DHEIX/DHEAX, I am not sure when it became a frequently discussed fund at M* or MFO. I first heard about it in 2018 from FD, who was talking about a couple of short term bond oefs, that could be a safe harbor in that turbulent market period. FD had mentioned both DHEAX and SEMIX as short term bond oefs, that were available to him at Schwab. When I moved my brokerage account from Fidelity to Schwab in early 2019, I took a close look at both DHEAX and SEMIX, but did not choose to invest in them at that time. Toward the end of 2019, when I was doing some end of year portfolio adjustments, I decided to put some money into DHEAX. I have been pleased with it so far, but I think there are a number of short term bond oefs in addition to DHEAX, that would be good choices for a conservative bond oef investor.
  • edited February 2020
    stillers said:

    DHEAX has been discussed well back into 2019 at M*. Not sure if you are referring to MFO only.

    ================================

    Well, that's the thing about the internet...

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEAX was on 10/30/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&collapse_discussion=true

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEIX was by yogi in a Barron's Summary on 04/29/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&page=2&collapse_discussion=true

    The majority of posts about them, here and there, have been in the last TWO months, yet posters like to celebrate them (and hundreds of other funds) as though they knew about them/owned them during the period they refer to them as the better/best.

    So what's your point again?

    stillers said:

    DHEAX has been discussed well back into 2019 at M*. Not sure if you are referring to MFO only.

    ================================

    Well, that's the thing about the internet...

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEAX was on 10/30/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&collapse_discussion=true

    According to this M* search, the first post about DHEIX was by yogi in a Barron's Summary on 04/29/2019:

    https://community.morningstar.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?q=dheix&noSynonym=false&page=2&collapse_discussion=true

    The majority of posts about them, here and there, have been in the last TWO months, yet posters like to celebrate them (and hundreds of other funds) as though they knew about them/owned them during the period they refer to them as the better/best.

    So what's your point again?

    Why so testy? I was only commenting. I have been considering DHEAX for much longer than a couple of months. One will never know how long it was discussed on M* because the forum changed less than a year ago. Cheers.
  • edited March 2020
    *
  • @dtconroe. I know I speak For a lot of folks on this board that greatly appreciate the contributions you've made over the last couple of months to MFO. I have learned a great deal about different classes of bond funds based on your postings. This has been incredibly valuable to a lot of us as you've given us a process for understanding and analyzing the risks associated with different funds. Plus some great options to consider. Thank you. I steer clear of some of the bickering going on with other threads.
  • "MikeW">@dtconroe. I know I speak For a lot of folks on this board that greatly appreciate the contributions you've made over the last couple of months to MFO. I have learned a great deal about different classes of bond funds based on your postings. This has been incredibly valuable to a lot of us as you've given us a process for understanding and analyzing the risks associated with different funds. Plus some great options to consider. Thank you. I steer clear of some of the bickering going on with other threads.

    MikeW, I am glad you are getting some value out of the thread.

  • Okay, so this thread is open again.

    Have a good remainder.
    Catch
  • Thanks to those who were supportive in getting this thread restored. I will be introducing another topic for discussion, on this thread, in a day or so.
  • Glad to see that you’re back up!
  • @dtconroe: if you introduce another topic I suggest you start a new post with its own title. This thread is already long. Thank you.
  • Although I indicated an intention of introducing another category of bond oefs on this thread, I have subsequently decided to take some time and evaluate what I have experienced on MFO with this thread. Thanks again for those who have been supportive to get this thread restored.
  • Anyone who wants to see 'only' those discussions with comments merely needs to click on the "Discussions +" category in the far left column upon logging into the Discussion Board. This negates those discussions that have had no comments since posting which may or may not be indicative of overall general interest. It also reduces the amount of scrolling needed to find a particular post. I might add that the 'Search' box also provides that capability. Readers that also want to follow a particular post can bookmark it and retrieve it quickly as well.

    One other thing - if you think that posts of interest get scrolled off of the main page to quickly for your liking you should have been a poster here back in the days of Ted who almost regularly posted conservatively 15-20 new discussions per day. If anything that is probably an understatement.

    To be honest what I really believe I am hearing you say is that you want this discussion board to operate the way you want it to or you will not participate. Obviously that's your choice but everyone else try's to play by the rules realizing that they may not be exactly what we think they should be. In my experience this is by far the friendliest discussion board you are likely to encounter IMHO.
  • As far as I can tell you did not indicate that your new topic involved bond OEFs. That is not really a new topic. I agree that would belong in this thread.
    dtconroe said:

    Although I indicated an intention of introducing another category of bond oefs on this thread, I have subsequently decided to take some time and evaluate what I have experienced on MFO with this thread. Thanks again for those who have been supportive to get this thread restored.

  • edited February 2020
    The following was originally posted over in the "moderated status" thread, but since it references this posting thread I'm showing it here as well.
    I wonder if there may be some conflation regarding "thread" and "category". Evidently other forums have separate categories for different types of investments. MFO does not, although given the current situation and the very wide interest in and response to the "Bond OEF Investing" post this might be something to consider.

    The "Bond OEF Investing" thread has seemingly taken on a life of it's own, in effect acting almost as a separate "category". Unfortunately, that has also caused it to become very long and unwieldy. If there were a distinct category for things "bondish" then it would be much more natural to have separate threads on various bond issues, all contained within one grouping.

    Might be worth consideration, if not beyond the resources of the management. The thing is, if that were to happen, it would only be logical to consider further splitting the "Fund Discussions" category into separate categories for stock fund related posts, and, I suppose, a category for "everything else funds".

    To reduce category clutter a bit perhaps the two "bullpen" categories could be combined, since the number of orphan "link posts" has greatly diminished.
  • Today, there was a series of comments on this thread, and a series of related comments on the thread entitled, "moderated" status of board members. Because of those comments, and what I experienced yesterday, I feel compelled to make a few additional statements.

    When I joined MFO a couple of months ago, I did that with the intention of determining if my approach to starting threads, would successfully fit into the MFO Discussion Site. I decided the best way of evaluating that, would be to start a thread, that was very similar to some very popular threads I started at M*. After 2 months, and a lot of positive support on MFO from other posters and over 10,000 views, I thought I was getting a pretty good idea of what that is like. However, yesterday David Snowball, on the thread mentioned above, completely surprised me, by announcing he was closing my thread because of "spats" on my thread (later determined unfounded), and because my thread had become too long, unwieldy, and was difficult to navigate. After a long day of challenging that decision, David Snowball decided to restore my thread. I was very pleased with that decision, but after a night of thinking about what I had just experienced, and then reading a whole bunch of additional posts today, I decided it was time to pause and evaluate my 2 month experience.

    I was feeling very positive about my MFO experience until yesterday, but after yesterday's experience, and today's additional posts by others, I am having second thoughts. I need to take a few days to sort through my thoughts.


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