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1.78% to lock up your money for 10 years? Come on ...

edited May 2012 in Off-Topic
At 1.78% on the 10 year Treasury this morning, don't know what rational investor would own them - other than as a strategic hedge in some risky portfolio - perhaps one rich in junk bonds. Come on ... yield is so low you're better off in a money market fund. Why put any of your $$ at any risk for such measly return potential? And, for most, ain't anywhere near 1.78% - as ya got them nasty fund fees. Maybe a chance to earn 1.38% in that long-term Treasury fund after expenses? Markets always run to extremes and this is surely one example. Can't imagine the risk-reward being substantially better on anything above BBB - borderline investment grade. Sure, got some funds holding them as a hedging vehicle. A bit different from ma & pop in a 401K buying the things. Lota factors at work in the markets. It's May of course. One thing to watch for is jaw-boning in speeches by Fed governors if markets deteriorate further. They're quite good at moving markets with a variety of mixed signals ... Europe got clocked overnight with several major indexes off around 2%. Asia mildly off. Gold down $24 this morning at around $1560. Nice $10-$20 drop in oil from recent highs. ($94 on one exchange).

Comments

  • Morn'in Hank,

    Fed's have short term rates set, and generally in their control. As buyers enter the other duration periods of the Treasury issues, the Fed doesn't neccessarily have to take any action in this space; if the yields are acceptable to them.
    And yes, 10 year is not a buy and hold at this time. Make the money on the captial/price appreciation and leave the area as needed going forward, not unlike the equity sector.

    The global markets may be continuing to have a "Japan moment".

    Take care, up there,
    Catch


  • One can argue about the wisdom of buying a 10-year T-bond. But if you do, your money is not "locked-up" for 10 years.
  • edited May 2012
    Reply to @Pat_F: Technically correct. However, should you or your fund manager consider bailing-out after rates begin to rise, there will be a choice of staying put at the existing rate (1.78%) or selling bonds at a loss. Not a good choice IMHO.
  • edited May 2012
    Reply to @catch22: Hi Catch. Cap-appreciation can only work if more "investors" think bonds are a good deal at even lower rates. Could happen I suppose. But to me this is eerily reminiscent of the "pet-rock" craze of the 70's - which bid up prices of certain common stones to lofty heights. If investing has anything to do with rational risk-taking and potential returns, Treasuries look like a poor investment. Would ruther put $$ on the tables in Vegas. Suspect "odds" there somewhat better than in the long term U.S. Treasury market nowadays.
  • edited May 2012
    I think the funny thing are CD rates - I have to get a 5 year CD to get over 1%? A lot of the CDs aren't even worth the effort of actually going and getting.

    I agree with Hank absolutely in theory regarding treasuries, but I think you have a populace that (and this is a generalization) that is prioritizing capital preservation over anything, and are desperate for any sort of yield. I think when this reverses itself, it could be quick and swift - there's been a very large move into treasuries, and there's always the chance that something could trigger a sudden move out. That said, it may not happen for days or months or possibly even years. People (especially those in/near retirement) just don't want to go into risk - I think three years ago turned off a fairly large group of people to investing in stocks, and they aren't coming back - at least for a long time.

    There are also a number of preferreds that I'm seeing trading over $25/par.

    Days like today aren't helping - they will only likely result in increased outflows from stock funds (although I think it will be interesting if we continue to see outflows from domestic funds and flat or slightly up/down into foreign stock funds.)

    Are we Japan? I don't think we are, although I question how much longer Japan's situation is even sustainable.
  • Hey scott, Hi,

    With markets behaviors I can see a wheel with 12 "compass points" that could represent 12 major investment sectors. I can also envision at the center of the wheel, a loaded and cocked gun with the safety off; each gun being pointed at each sector. As the wheel spins, any number of pins on cams of risk move as required by the markets; and could/would trip/fire one or any number of guns at a particular sector(s). I do believe I hear some shots just about now...............:)

    In sync with you on the variables of "reality bites" going forward.

    If the big kids are not able to or unwilling to support the equity markets one more time; the many equity investors who remain away from the equity sectors will likely remain "forever". The second portion, would be the younger one's who pay attention and would continue to wonder whether they choose to risk their monies. 'Course, I do believe various equity sectors with continue to find favor. The obvious problem is determing the why, when and where.

    We have chewed upon this potential problem area for a few years now; but the circumstances remain.

    Regards,
    Catch
  • edited May 2012
    Reply to @catch22: Well, I think if things turn South very considerably here after all of the trillions of dollars that have been pumped into the economy in the last three years, the social/societal implications are likely not real good, as well. If - as you noted - asset markets tank again, there will be tumbleweeds blowing through the NYSE - you'll have lost the interest in investing of another large portion of the population.

    I think a fair amount of young people are turned off to investing based upon what happened in 2008, but there's also a number of other factors (massive student debt, etc) that doesn't leave much for risk.

    You have a society as a whole that's largely unprepared for retirement and pensions that are massively underfunded and probably operating on unrealistic expectations on top of it.

    As for the whole thing, the last years have emphasized short-term solutions over long-term sustainability, and while those short-term fixes may be breaking down now, I continue to think that they will be continued if need be. There are serious, structural issues within the economy, and until we actually pull up our sleeves, we're just going to keep having these issues pop up again and again.

    All that said, I still don't like treasuries.
  • edited May 2012
    I almost fell out of chair over the weekend, saw some report about major index [spy ? ] TOTAL CUMMULATIVE 10 YRS GAIN WAS +0.5%!
  • edited May 2012
    Reply to @scott: Agree. And think there's a perception among some that bonds - especially higher quality ones - are a "safe" investment. Persistent downward interest rates have reinforced that perception. I'm saying - on the surface - just looking at where rates are now, bonds are a whole lot riskier than many perceive. If "safety" is your main goal, stay in very short term bonds or use a good money market fund. There just ain't that much to be gained by being long. Pretty sure most "diversified bond" or "balanced" fund managers have reached same conclusion and - to the extent their charter allows them to shorten duration - have pretty much sold out of longer govt bonds. OAKBX, for one, has been there a year or more.
  • This speaks clearly to the point of real diversification.
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