Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Looking to park some money at Vanguard. Why is there a Windsor and Windsor II? And why does Windsor II have more assets than Windsor? Finally, any thoughts of Vanguard Wellington?
Windsor closed years ago due to asset size at the time; windsor II opened with same management then as I recall; assume it's bigger because V thought investment opportunities were sufficient for it's size. M* likes Wellington (5 stars). Obviously, the costs are good.
Windsor was managed for decades by the legendary John Neff, who never managed Windsor II.
You're right about the timing, though - " in May of [1985], at the urging of its star manager, Vanguard closed Windsor to all but existing shareholders in retirement plans such as Keoghs and Individual Retirement Accounts. Money Magazine 10/12/87. Windsor II launched (with James Barrow at the helm from day one through today) on June 24, 1985. (From prospectus.)
What I vaguely remember about Windsor in the 80s is a sterling reputation and a reopening. I took a look at its holdings, which had a hefty dose of American car companies, and passed. I should have tried to understand value investing a bit better.
Okay so bottom line, which is the better fund? Needless to say M* thinks II is better than original. However, I think we all know how Yours Truly feels about what M* thinks.
I would really appreciate comment from any who hold either/both funds. Thanks much.
Seems to me that Windsor has a history of holding stocks in cyclical companies, thus running hot and cold with the economy. Also, it buys companies on the cheap, which can lead to extended times of under performance. I personally don't like the ups and downs because I can't exercise the patience. Possibly one positive going forward, is Vanguard recently fired AllianceBernstein, which handled a part of the Windsor portfolio. However, they replaced them with Penza Investment Management, a deep value house. If you like deep value investing and are patient, this might be a fund for you.
On the other hand, I find Windsor II a fairly good consistent large cap value fund with a smoother ride. I think Jim Barrow is good, but unfortunately Vanguard waters down the fund with multiple managers. Not certain the latest, but I think Barrow's runs about 60% of the portfolio.
Dang! Thank you for the insight. I'm going to research Vanguard Wellington. As I'm getting older, balder, but not necessarily wiser, I need all the help I can get from this board.
Just my 2 cents here, of course. VWNFX, with more equity exposure in the large sector should do better with a strong equity market and the numbers may relfect this. VWELX, indicates its name more so. VWINX, also reflects its more conservative stance.
Returns from 2008 reflect the equity exposure of these funds. 2009 was a recovery year after March. 2010 found a choppy market, with the European risk coming to center stage. 2011 was generally a dud for broad equity exposure with the SP-500 with dividends at about 2.7%, while bonds favored most of the year. 2012's YTD's above again reflect the "current" state of the rising equity areas. If this holds VWNFX should be the winner at year's end. One's choice of the above, at least for me; would be the outlook for equities for the next 3 months, in your opinion. Not knowing what your other equity or bond holdings encompass; leaves me with a coin toss for your risk/reward.
Unfortunately with Windsor, I'm not sure how much one can make of its track record. It had a complete overhaul of managers in 2008. But it has gone, and seems to be continuing to go, its own way.
Here's an article from 2008 analyzing Vanguard's actively managed funds through 2006. They regressed the Vanguard actively managed funds against the Vanguard indexes to see what sort of index "mix" each fund acted like. It shows that 92% of Windsor II's behaviour tracked Vanguard Value Index, while the Value Index accounted for just 46% of Windor's movements. Looking at Figure 1, one sees about 13% of Windor's behavior attributable to foreign investments (while Windor II's is a mere 3%). Today's portfolios seem to follow that, with Windsor having 17% invested internationally, with only 8% of Windsor II invested outside the US.
So Windsor seems the more "adventurous", but not to its advantage. Lower alpha, lower Sharpe ratio, etc. And while Barrow may run only 60% of Windsor II, Mordy (Wellington Mgmt) is running only 70% of Windsor, so the lead manager of each fund has a similar portion of the portfolio to work with.
I'd be more inclined to go with Windsor II than Windsor, overall. But I do like the greater diversification that Windor seems to provide. (That said, they each track their best fit indexes by over 98%).
You may have your ticker symbols a little jumbled: VWNDX=Windsor VWNFX=Windsor II VWELX=Wellington VWINX=Wellesley, an income fund which typically holds 60% stocks, 40% bonds, yield 3.3%
Hi randynevin, Don't know if your reply is to me or "VF". What was jumbled about the tickers? As to my reply, VF asked about Windsor/Windsor II and Wellington; and I threw in Wellesley for a further compare. However, I did not note the ticker for Windsor. Take care, Catch
Reply to @VintageFreak: Vanguard used to put out a nifty small booklet describing each fund in nuce. Then they stopped. Trying to open the Summary Prospectus last night hung up the computer each time, so I will say what I remember about old Wellington VWELX versus new one. (It is my oldest equity MF holding.) Formerly (IIRC), Vanguard split the companies in an index, perhaps S&P 500, and put the value half of the companies into Wellington. At some point it seems to have moved away from that strategy, for it now holds about 100 equities, some of which (8%) are foreign. If you have enough parked with Vanguard, or enough in a given fund, you are eligible for Admiral shares, which have a very low E.R.
Talk about jumbled Wellesley is 40/60; Wellington is 60/40 (stocks/bonds). Its SEC yield (per Vanguard) is 2.5%; the 3.3% figure (from M*) is trailing twelve month yield.
So if we want a Vanguard fund that has 50% stock and 50% bond we need to buy Wellesington or Wellingley. God knows how they came up with these names. Morgan Growth my foot.
Will DCA in Wellington as I harvest capital gains for the rest of the year.
Hi VF, I'm not very familiar with Vanguard funds; but as you note, Wellesley or Wellington will get you close to the 50/50 mix. Or take a peek at VGSTX, which is a fund of funds.
Reply to @catch22: Oops, my bad. I meant VWINX=60% bonds, 40% stocks. I didn't see where VWINX was referenced earlier in the conversation, and I thought you intended VWNDX. Sorry!
Ironically, some obviously politically motivated sites are accusing Obama as investing in companies that ship jobs to China based on S&P 500 index fund holdings. What a twist to reach such conclusion.
For a tax deferred account and if you are looking for a split between stocks and bonds, I really like the combination of Wellesley and Wellington (VGSTX has a 60/40 mix as Wellington does but with twice the foreign allocation) . It has a large cap value tilt (VGSTX has a LCG one) and a yield just north of 3% (VGSTX about 2.3%). Wellington Management runs both funds, which I find to be a good house and the portfolio managers on both the stock and bond sides are seasoned and have run the funds for some years now.
Comments
"Park"? Vanguard doesn't like short term money.
You're right about the timing, though - " in May of [1985], at the urging of its star manager, Vanguard closed Windsor to all but existing shareholders in retirement plans such as Keoghs and Individual Retirement Accounts. Money Magazine 10/12/87. Windsor II launched (with James Barrow at the helm from day one through today) on June 24, 1985. (From prospectus.)
What I vaguely remember about Windsor in the 80s is a sterling reputation and a reopening. I took a look at its holdings, which had a hefty dose of American car companies, and passed. I should have tried to understand value investing a bit better.
I would really appreciate comment from any who hold either/both funds. Thanks much.
On the other hand, I find Windsor II a fairly good consistent large cap value fund with a smoother ride. I think Jim Barrow is good, but unfortunately Vanguard waters down the fund with multiple managers. Not certain the latest, but I think Barrow's runs about 60% of the portfolio.
Mona
VWNFX, large value, yield = about 2.1%
VWELX, moderate mixed allocation, yield = about 2.9%
VWINX, conservative mixed allocation, yield = about 3.1%
For the above:
2008 2009 2010 2011 YTD 10 year
VWNFX - 37% + 27% + 11% + 2.7% + 16.8% + 8%
VWELX - 22% + 22% + 11% + 3.8% + 12% + 8.6%
VWINX - 10% + 16% + 11% + 9.6% + 9.3% + 7.6%
Just my 2 cents here, of course.
VWNFX, with more equity exposure in the large sector should do better with a strong equity market and the numbers may relfect this.
VWELX, indicates its name more so.
VWINX, also reflects its more conservative stance.
Returns from 2008 reflect the equity exposure of these funds. 2009 was a recovery year after March. 2010 found a choppy market, with the European risk coming to center stage.
2011 was generally a dud for broad equity exposure with the SP-500 with dividends at about 2.7%, while bonds favored most of the year. 2012's YTD's above again reflect the "current" state of the rising equity areas. If this holds VWNFX should be the winner at year's end.
One's choice of the above, at least for me; would be the outlook for equities for the next 3 months, in your opinion.
Not knowing what your other equity or bond holdings encompass; leaves me with a coin toss for your risk/reward.
Take care,
Catch
Here's an article from 2008 analyzing Vanguard's actively managed funds through 2006. They regressed the Vanguard actively managed funds against the Vanguard indexes to see what sort of index "mix" each fund acted like. It shows that 92% of Windsor II's behaviour tracked Vanguard Value Index, while the Value Index accounted for just 46% of Windor's movements. Looking at Figure 1, one sees about 13% of Windor's behavior attributable to foreign investments (while Windor II's is a mere 3%). Today's portfolios seem to follow that, with Windsor having 17% invested internationally, with only 8% of Windsor II invested outside the US.
So Windsor seems the more "adventurous", but not to its advantage. Lower alpha, lower Sharpe ratio, etc. And while Barrow may run only 60% of Windsor II, Mordy (Wellington Mgmt) is running only 70% of Windsor, so the lead manager of each fund has a similar portion of the portfolio to work with.
I'd be more inclined to go with Windsor II than Windsor, overall. But I do like the greater diversification that Windor seems to provide. (That said, they each track their best fit indexes by over 98%).
VWNDX=Windsor
VWNFX=Windsor II
VWELX=Wellington
VWINX=Wellesley, an income fund which typically holds 60% stocks, 40% bonds, yield 3.3%
Don't know if your reply is to me or "VF". What was jumbled about the tickers?
As to my reply, VF asked about Windsor/Windsor II and Wellington; and I threw in Wellesley for a further compare. However, I did not note the ticker for Windsor.
Take care,
Catch
Formerly (IIRC), Vanguard split the companies in an index, perhaps S&P 500, and put the value half of the companies into Wellington. At some point it seems to have moved away from that strategy, for it now holds about 100 equities, some of which (8%) are foreign.
If you have enough parked with Vanguard, or enough in a given fund, you are eligible for Admiral shares, which have a very low E.R.
Wellesley is 40/60; Wellington is 60/40 (stocks/bonds).
Its SEC yield (per Vanguard) is 2.5%; the 3.3% figure (from M*) is trailing twelve month yield.
Will DCA in Wellington as I harvest capital gains for the rest of the year.
Thanks all.
I'm not very familiar with Vanguard funds; but as you note, Wellesley or Wellington will get you close to the 50/50 mix.
Or take a peek at VGSTX, which is a fund of funds.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=0056&FundIntExt=INT#hist=tab:2
Take care,
Catch
http://moremoney.blogs.money.cnn.com/2009/05/18/obamas-favorite-mutual-fund/
However, it seems he is investing in Vanguard 500 Index fund more recently.
http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0511/president-obamas-financial-portfolio.aspx
Ironically, some obviously politically motivated sites are accusing Obama as investing in companies that ship jobs to China based on S&P 500 index fund holdings. What a twist to reach such conclusion.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-has-investments-in-companies-that-ship-jobs-overseas/article/2502361#.UGFAQlGur8k
http://pushbacknow.net/2012/07/18/the-obamas-portfolio-show-investments-in-american-corporations-that-have-been-out-sourced-over-seas/