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Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
  • JP Morgan Revises Bitcoin Target To $130,000, Citing Decreased Volatility
    https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/jp-morgan-revises-bitcoin-target-to-$130000-citing-decreased-volatility-2021-04-04
    JP Morgan Revises Bitcoin Target To $130,000, Citing Decreased Volatility
    The financial giant is gradually becoming more bullish on Bitcoin and institutional adoption.
    JPMorgan, in an email note released to clients on Thursday, cited decreasing Bitcoin volatility as a positive for institutional interest in the asset. In an article covering the release by Bloomberg, strategists including Nikolaos Panigirtzoglou at JPMorgan wrote:
    “These tentative signs of Bitcoin volatility normalization are encouraging… In our opinion, a potential normalization of Bitcoin volatility from here would likely help to reinvigorate the institutional interest going forward.”
    Maybe reasonable to tiptoe in further?
  • Seeking an hourly fee only financial advisor for a small non-profit
    Hi All,
    I volunteer with a small non-profit that has several hundred k in long term assets that we'd like to invest so as to earn more than the pitiful return on money market accounts/savings accounts. The assets are held at Vanguard. Our by-laws require that we use a financial advisor of some kind. Vanguard only offers advisory services to individuals, not to organizations. I've talked to a few financial advisors, but no one seems to work with Vanguard accounts. They all want to move the assets to Schwab or Fidelity. That's a nonstarter with the board because opening the Vanguard account was such a hassle and they don't want to open a new account. So, I think we're looking for someone who could advise us on an hourly basis, but let us do the actual management of the investments. I've been looking on various fee-only investment advisor websites, but very few work with non-profits and/or they require millions in assets. Does anyone have any leads? Feel free to private message me.
    Thanks!
    lrwilliams
  • Charts and Video from MFO Premium Webinar – Thursday, 15 April 2021

    On Thursday, April 15th, we will host two webinars about the MFO Premium search tool site.

    The site helps individual investors and financial advisers 1) sort through the vast number of funds available today based on criteria important to them, 2) maintain candidate lists of promising funds to conduct further due diligence on, and 3) monitor risk and return performance of their current portfolios.

    Since our last webinar in January, which featured my colleague Lynn Bolin, the site has experienced several upgrades, including:


    • Redesigned MultiSearch user interface

    • Dashboard of Launch Alerts tool

    • Saved Searches feature in MultiSearch

    • Expanded Watchlists and Portfolios

    • Jump Scroll, Plus Search, and Exclude Category features in MultiSearch

    The morning session will be at 11 am Pacific time (2pm Eastern). The afternoon at 2pm Pacific time (5pm Eastern). The webinars will be enabled by Zoom. You are welcome to register for both webinars.

    Please use the following links to register for the morning session or afternoon session. Each will last nominally 1 hour, including questions.

    Material covered in previous webinar can be found here.

    Hope to you can join us again on the call. If you have any topics you'd like discussed, or general questions, happy to answer promptly via email ([email protected]) or scheduled call.

  • Another Day, Another $3 Trillion
    A newsletter I receive that I thought might encourage comments and discussion:
    Newsletter Topic:
    When you shift risk from individuals to the government (or anyone else, as what happens every day in financial markets) one of three things can happen:
    1. The risk still exists, but it’s smaller because of the power of diversification.
    2. The risk stays the same size and is transferred from one party to another.
    3. The risk increases, because you’ve created a new systematic risk, moral hazard, or some distortion in which prices and incentives don’t make sense anymore.
    Welcome to Known Unknowns, a newsletter that’s here to remind you that although you can shift risk onto someone else, it never really disappears.
    known-unknowns
  • Vanguard Wellington Fund closing to financial intermediaries
    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/105563/000168386321001655/f8340d1.htm
    497 1 f8340d1.htm VANGUARD WELLINGTON FUND 497
    Vanguard Wellington™ Fund
    Supplement to the Prospectus and Summary Prospectus
    Important Note Regarding Vanguard Wellington Fund
    Vanguard Wellington Fund will be closed to all prospective financial advisory, institutional, and intermediary clients (other than clients who invest through a Vanguard brokerage account).
    The Fund will remain closed until further notice and there is no specific time frame for when the Fund will reopen. During the Fund's closed period, all current shareholders may continue to purchase, exchange, or redeem shares of the Fund online, by telephone, or by mail.
    The Fund may modify these transaction policies at any time and without prior notice to shareholders. You may call Vanguard for more detailed information about the Fund's transaction policies. Participants in employer-sponsored plans may call Vanguard Participant Services at 800-523-1188. Investors in nonretirement accounts and IRAs may call Vanguard's Investor Information Department at 800-662-7447.
    © 2019 The Vanguard Group, Inc. All rights reserved.
    Vanguard Marketing Corporation, Distributor.
    PS 21 032019
  • DGHM MicroCap Value Fund to be liquidated
    https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1396092/000138713121003897/dghm-497_032521.htm
    497 1 dghm-497_032521.htm SUPPLEMENT DATED MARCH 25, 2021
    DGHM MicroCap Value Fund
    Investor Class Shares (DGMMX)
    Institutional Class Shares (DGMIX)
    Supplement dated March 25, 2021
    to the Prospectus and Statement of Additional Information (“SAI”),
    each dated June 29, 2020
    The Board of Trustees (the “Board”) of World Funds Trust (the “Trust”) has approved a Plan of Liquidation (the “Plan”) for the DGHM MicroCap Value Fund (the “Fund”), which became effective on March 25, 2021. Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Co., LLC (the “Adviser”) recommended that the Board approve the Plan due to a diminished asset base and correspondingly rising expenses of the Fund, which the Adviser has indicated that it is no longer willing to continue to subsidize. As a result, the Board concluded that it is in the best interest of the Fund’s shareholders to liquidate the Fund. The Fund is expected to liquidate on or about April 26, 2021 (the “Liquidation Date”).
    Effective March 25, 2021, the Fund was closed to new and subsequent investments. Until the Liquidation Date, Fund shareholders may continue to reinvest dividends and distributions in the Fund or redeem their shares. Any remaining shareholders on the Liquidation Date will receive a distribution of their remaining investment value in the Fund based on the instructions listed on your account. The sale or liquidation of your shares will generally be a taxable event. You should consult your tax advisor about your tax situation.
    As shareholders redeem shares of the Fund between March 25, 2021 and the Liquidation Date, the Fund may not be able to maintain its stated investment goal and other investment policies. Accordingly, the Fund may deviate from its stated investment goal and other investment policies during the period between March 25, 2021 and the Liquidation Date.
    If you have questions or need assistance, please contact your financial advisor directly or the Fund toll-free at 1-800-673-0550.
    This Supplement and the existing Prospectus provide relevant information for all shareholders and should be retained for future reference. Both the Prospectus and the SAI have been filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, are incorporated by reference, and can be obtained without charge by calling the Fund toll-free at 1-800-673-0550.
  • Preparing Your Portfolio for Inflation
    Josh Brown Piece:
    On the economic and investment side, the quants at BofA are thinking that... over 60% of the bank’s analysts see rising prices in their respective coverage universe. One of BofA’s top strategists, Michael Hartnett, is talking about 2020 being the secular bottom for rates and inflation.
    and,
    ... a whole lot of fiscal stimulus and monetary stimulus, too. But here we are, at the big, fat middle part of an economic expansion with rising prices, capex growth, increasing demand for skilled labor and a massive, generational infrastructure bill on the way.
    whats-changed-for-now-and-whats-changed-forever
    Recent Michael Hartnett Pieces:
    The value of U.S. financial assets are now six times the size of gross domestic product. “Wealth gains obscene, but extreme asset bubbles natural end to nihilistic bull markets of past decade,” he said.
    And longer-term drivers of disinflation were poised to wane, too. Fiscal authorities were now more open to increased spending and central banks were now explicitly targeting higher inflation as a goal.
    Hartnett anticipated the coming decade could show similarities to the late 60s and early 70s when inflation and interest rates started to lift off as investors questioned the combination of easy fiscal and monetary policy.
    So what does this all mean?
    First of all, investors will have to get used to a world of lower investment returns, while dealing with an upturn in volatility, said Hartnett.
    And the ravages of inflation could turn negative returns in fixed-income into the norm. Instead, investors should look to take shelter in assets that tend to thrive during period of price pressures such as commodities.
    inflation-rebound-means-40-year-bull-market-in-bonds-is-over-says-bofa
    sell-the-vaccine-in-response-to-violent-inflationary-price-action-bank-of-america-strategist-says
  • Can anyone please share if any of their Mut Fund holdings are in the green lately?
    @Mav123 - adding to @catch22's response I do invest in my own collection of a dividend 'growth' portfolio. It's composed primarily of dividend champions and aristocrats. I built it primarily for the income AND of stocks that I felt I would be comfortable holding forever. (Note: stuff happens so we both know that ain't true). It represents roughly 50% of my total portfolio.
    Anyway, my portfolio has delivered that income and income growth in spades. It has also produced a comfortable total return BUT one has to be quite patient when selecting buy points. Also, I don't use any of the ETF's listed in catch's post nor any of the dividend focused mutual funds. The yields are too low and I don't like paying an ER when I can build my own fund, collect the income and pay myself.
    I did hold a position in DGRO (iShares Dividend Growth) which I recently swapped for DIVO (Amplify CWP Enhanced Dividend Income). It's just a way for me to diversify the sources of the dividend income I collect by way of sector choices. I own no financial stocks and only one energy stock.
    Thank you for the performance comparison and composition of your portfolio, 50% in dividend companies. I held DIVO since late last year and sold it, it just wasn't moving, sideways or down.
  • Can anyone please share if any of their Mut Fund holdings are in the green lately?
    To hopefully make those with losses feel better, I’ll go the other way. Back in 2010 I became convinced that the housing bubble/financial crash was really a gasoline price driven event and that gasoline would immediately go back to $4/gal. And in the process oil companies would benefit, So I bought some shares in IXC and the Canadian small cap index CNDA. 10 years later, my IXC investment is still underwater. CNDA shuttered years ago.
  • Can anyone please share if any of their Mut Fund holdings are in the green lately?
    @Mav123 - adding to @catch22's response I do invest in my own collection of a dividend 'growth' portfolio. It's composed primarily of dividend champions and aristocrats. I built it primarily for the income AND of stocks that I felt I would be comfortable holding forever. (Note: stuff happens so we both know that ain't true). It represents roughly 50% of my total portfolio.
    Anyway, my portfolio has delivered that income and income growth in spades. It has also produced a comfortable total return BUT one has to be quite patient when selecting buy points. Also, I don't use any of the ETF's listed in catch's post nor any of the dividend focused mutual funds. The yields are too low and I don't like paying an ER when I can build my own fund, collect the income and pay myself.
    I did hold a position in DGRO (iShares Dividend Growth) which I recently swapped for DIVO (Amplify CWP Enhanced Dividend Income). It's just a way for me to diversify the sources of the dividend income I collect by way of sector choices. I own no financial stocks and only one energy stock.
  • Couple Municipal investments-Best Municipal Bond Funds to Buy and Hold and myths w muni bonds
    https://www.advisorperspectives.com/commentaries/2021/03/19/taxable-municipals-myths-and-misperceptions
    https://news.yahoo.com/9-best-municipal-bond-funds-211119796.html
    Taxable Municipals – Myths and Misperceptions
    by Tony Tanner of Ivy Investments, 3/19/21
    Taxable Municipal Bonds grabbed the attention of not only municipal bond market participants in 2020, but also of investors and financial professionals globally across the asset class landscape.
    9 Best Municipal Bond Funds to Buy and Hold
    Debbie Carlson
    State and local governments are in good shape.
    ***Like other asset classes, the municipal bond market rebounded after the initial sell-off last year because of the pandemic. Amy Magnotta, co-head of discretionary portfolios at Brinker Capital Investments, says state and local governments "are actually in pretty good shape, surprisingly, despite the pandemic," noting most state revenues were roughly flat in 2020 versus 2019. With President Joe Biden's stimulus money and infrastructure plan, and the reopening of many states' economies, the fiscal situation for many state and local governments might be good as they get cash injections. However, she says, with interest rates so low, investors need to be careful what funds they choose. Here are nine muni bond funds to buy.
    Vanguard Tax-Exempt Bond ETF (ticker: VTEB)
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    Todd Rosenbluth, director of ETF and mutual fund research at CFRA, says exchange-traded fund VTEB is a good place for muni bond investors to start when building this part of their portfolio. The fund tracks the S&P Municipal Bond Index, which is made of investment-grade issues and diversified across states. VTEB's annual cost is 0.06%, which amounts to $6 for every $10,000 invested, one of the lowest among its peers. The fund is free from both federal income tax from the alternative minimum tax. The yield is 2%. "It's a great core part of the portfolio," Rosenbluth says.
    Baird Short-Term Municipal Bond Fund (BTMIX)
    The municipal bond universe can be an inefficient asset class due to its large number of issuers, says Steven Saunders, director and portfolio advisor at Round Table Wealth Management, so his firm prefers to use actively managed funds where the managers can find relative value through security selection and yield-curve positioning. His pick is BTMIX, which "has demonstrated consistent value-add in these areas, and their short-duration strategy allows for defensive positioning in the event rates continue to rise." The fund has an annual cost of 0.3% and a yield of 1.5%.
    - ADVERTISEMENT -
    PIMCO National Municipal Intermediate Value Fund (GNMVX)
    Mark Mumford, director at Hollow Brook Wealth Management, says his firm looks for municipal bonds strategies that have a strong emphasis on credit quality and issuer diversification. GNMVX tries to limit swings in assets under management which can negatively affect a municipal bond strategy, he adds. The fund has a low annual fee of 0.39% and a yield of 1.67%, with an effective duration of 5.3 years. The fund seeks investment-grade bonds with higher yields using fundamental credit research. "Municipal markets can be inefficient, creating opportunities for experienced teams to find value in a low interest rate environment," Mumford says.
    Northern Intermediate Tax-Exempt Fund (NOITX)
    Magnotta says with rates low and a recent pickup in market volatility, she prefers active management and is focusing on investment-grade munis. She chooses NOITX, because she likes that it has an experienced team with a long tenure, holds high-quality issues and has a liquid portfolio. She notes the annual cost of 0.46% is below average. "This is a strategy that long term is a good balance in a portfolio," Magnotta says. This fund has more than $3 billion in assets under management, and the average credit quality in the fund is A-rated.***
    Vanguard Tax-Exempt Bond ETF (VTEB)
    -- Baird Short-Term Municipal Bond Fund (BTMIX)
    -- PIMCO National Municipal Intermediate Value Fund (GNMVX)
    -- Northern Intermediate Tax-Exempt Fund (NOITX)
    -- Nuveen Dynamic Municipal Opportunities Fund (NDMO)
    -- VanEck Vectors High Yield Municipal Index ETF (HYD)
    -- Nuveen High Yield Municipal Bond Fund (NHMRX)
    -- Nuveen All-American Municipal Bond Fund (FAARX)
    -- Northern Arizona Tax-Exempt Fund (NOAZX)
    Several good reasonable funds considered to be added here especially for capital Preservation and retirement accts/and inflation worries.
    We do have HYD but may add some to Mama retired portfolio
    Enjoy
    Happy Saturday
  • 10-Year Closing in on 1.5% (OP) - Blows Right Past - Near 5% (30 months later) - Whee!
    VIX climbed 10% today, but still close to its 52 week low.
    VIX Index
    The MOVE Index climbed 5%, but is making new 52 week highs:
    The Merrill Lynch Option Volatility Estimate (MOVE) Index is a yield curve weighted index of the normalized implied volatility on 1-month Treasury options which are weighted on the 2, 5, 10, and 30 year contracts. This Volatility Index shows the market's expectation of 30-day volatility. It is constructed using the implied volatility of a wide range of S&P 500 index options. This volatility is meant to be forward looking, is calculated from both calls and puts, and is a widely used measure of market risk, often referred to as the "investor fear gauge."
    Many of us are familiar with the VIX Index, commonly referred to as the “Fear Index”. The VIX Index is a measure of “fear” as that relates to equity markets and typically rises during periods of falling prices, sometimes sharply during more precipitous declines.
    Did you know that there is a similar index that measures fear within the bond market? That index was developed by Merrill Lynch and is referred to as the “MOVE” Index. The index rises as concerns grow that interest rates are on the march higher. The index will rise more sharply when there are fears in the market that rates may be headed significantly higher as was the case during the 2013 Taper Tantrum.
    https://raymondjames.com/davidolnick/david-chart-of-the-week/2016/11/18/the-move-index
    Financial Times charts the MOVE Index over the last 12 months or so here:
    MOVE Index
    *Notice the spike in the MOVE in March 2020*
  • Wall Street Banks, The Fed and Politics
    On March 31, an emergency pandemic regulatory relief measure that for the past year has allowed Wall Street banks to hold less loss-absorbing capital against certain assets is due to expire.
    Appearing to yield to the industry could put a second term in jeopardy for Powell, who was appointed Fed chief by former Republican President Donald Trump, because anti-Wall Street progressives control the Senate Banking Committee, which vets Fed nominees, and hold sway over White House financial nominees, analysts said.
    “Powell (is) in a politically precarious position,” said Isaac Boltansky, director of policy research at Washington-based Compass Point Research & Trading. “This decision will leave someone politically important unhappy with him.”
    u-s-feds-powell-faces-political-test-on-bank-capital-relief-question
  • Waiting for the Last Dance -- Jeremy Grantham
    Can’t take much more of Grantham - be he right or wrong. Bloomberg continues to re-air that interview weeks after it first appeared. However, I have the greatest respect for economist Henry Kaufman (whom those over 60 may remember). When Louis Rukeyser selected “three of the most influential financial voices of the past quarter century” for his show’s 25th Anniversary program in 1995, Kaufman was among the 3 guests (the other 2 being Sir John Templeton and Peter Lynch).
    Extended excerpt from Randal Forsyth’s always first-rate colum appearing in this week’s Barrons’s (March 15, 2021):
    Dr. Doom’s Latest Warning ...
    “Henry Kaufman earned that moniker in the 1970s and 1980s as the hugely influential chief economist of Salomon Brothers, then the reigning bond kings of Wall Street. Along with his fellow nonagenarian ... former Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan, Kaufman is back issuing jeremiads about the current state of the financial and economic world. .... In a speech on Wednesday evening to the National Economists Club (Kaufman asserted) that financial innovations, such as securitization, have mainly spurred an explosion of debt, much of it for speculative purposes.
    “As the quantity of credit has exploded, its quality has fallen, Kaufman continued. As with everything else, globalization and technology also have transformed financial markets. Deregulation fundamentally changed the structure of the financial worlds from the era of clear divides between commercial and investment banking and government-set interest-rate caps. Regulation has been insufficient to balance ‘entrepreneurship and fiduciary responsibility,’ he added, which was checked when Wall Street firms were partnerships, with partners’ net worth on the line, a concept that is being rediscovered by some academics.”

    Other take-aways from the article:
    - Kaufman’s remarks re corporate bond liquidity are very incisive. (He doesn’t think there is much).
    - He notes an alarming concentration of financial wealth / influence in a very few “too big to fail” institutions.
    - His remarks re the Treasury and the Federal Reserve being “joined at the hips” are telling.
    - The article’s overall take-away is that Kaufman, who previously called the bond bull market, now sees a reversal of the trend leading to a long term bear market in bonds. I’d have to re-read the article again, but I think he sees inflation increasing and stocks stagnating or falling as a result.
    Disclosure: Kaufman recently published a book on the topic.
    You might be able to access the article with the following link. If not, the magazine’s a great value at almost any price - ISTM.
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Barrons March 2021 Dr. Dooms Warning&ia=web
  • Why in the World Would You Own Bond (Funds) When…
    Cullen Roche on the need for both Stocks and Bonds:
    ...we all have specific time horizons on certain liabilities – your rent, your mortgage, your credit card bill, etc. And the key to good financial planning is matching those liabilities with certain assets that are very likely to provide liquidity for those future expected expenses. Your biggest asset is your labor and the predictable income stream that it generates for you over time. But you also need a portfolio of other assets that are likely to provide you with supplemental cash flow streams over time. Especially if you ever want to retire.
    This is why stocks and bonds play such an important role in your portfolio. Most of us won’t generate predictable cash flows from owning real estate, cars, art, Bitcoin and other non-cash flow generating assets.¹ So stocks and bonds play a crucial role in asset allocation specifically because they provide those predictable cash flow streams.
    https://pragcap.com/why-stocks-and-bonds-are-the-core-of-any-portfolio/
  • Why in the World Would You Own Bond (Funds) When…
    Is there a Bond Fund that Shorts Bonds?
    pension funds, insurance companies, sovereign wealth funds, and savings accounts cannot meet their financial needs with these investments so holding bonds assures their failure to meet their obligations. At the same time, while there is some room for diversification benefit, because of limitations of how low interest rates can go, bond prices are close to their upper limits in price, which makes being short them a relatively low-risk bet.
    A Ray Dalio Take:
    why-world-would-you-own-bonds-ray-dalio
    His link to The Changing World Order
    https://principles.com/the-changing-world-order/
    There are ETFs that Short Bonds:
    If you ever wondered how to short bonds in an ETF then you will be glad to know that there are currently several short bond ETFs. "Short" here does not refer to the duration of the bond (short-term) but rather the fact that it is a bearish or inverse bond ETF or exchange traded fund.
    The current inverse bond ETFs available are mostly short treasury ETFs but they include an inverse high yield bond etf and they are issued by either ProShares or Direxion. The short treasury ETFs go up in price whenever Treasury Bonds go down in price and vice versa.
    bondetf.net/short-bond-etf.htm
  • good allocation fund for early retiree
    Not recommending this to anyone, I am in NO position to do that, not a financial advisor, I don't know you, just posting for entertainment purposes, blah, blah...
    What I have been doing is phasing strongly into PMEFX, Penn Mutual AM 1847 Income Fund, run in part by a couple of fund managers who used to run BERIX (Berwyn Income Fund)
    Do like their past results, do like they are starting from a small asset base, have sat out for a year, likely due to non compete, like that as they likely have been doing their homework and formulating their strategy. Do like their stock portion, value, strong ROIC, balance sheets, div payers. Cipollini is articulate, seems like he has moxy, have seen him on some vid clips. Conservative to somewhat moderate approach? Younger guy too, likely going to be running that fund for some time hopefully, not dependent on one fund manager, looks like there are four managers.
    Me thinks, FWIW, some of those other funds listed on above posts are going to get hammered biggly when market goes down, might not happen right away but looking out in the future sure looks like we are biggly over valued right now.
    I've taken the monies out of TMSRX (too much black box, swaps, got small burn in IQDAX, could have been a lot worse if that happened several months ago) and into this fund.
    Avail at Schwab.
    Good Luck and Good Health to All,
    Baseball Fan
  • A Bitcoin / Cryptocurrency thread & Experiment
    This , being from Suze Orman scares me as much as anything else about Bitcoin.
  • A Bitcoin / Cryptocurrency thread & Experiment
    Interesting articles by Schwartzer.
    What intrigues me is that Satoshi still has 1 million unspent bitcoin in his original wallet that he mined in 2008-09. That's worth $57 billion today! Of course, Satoshi could be an individual or a group of people; nobody knows.
    I'm also intrigued as to the timing of Bitcoin's development and launch - immediately following the crash of 2008-09 as stockmarkets were bottoming. Was this purposefully timed to quietly usher in a new method of financial transacting and accounting? I don't know or have any views, but I've read several theories for and against.
  • 10 High-Yield ETFs for Income-Minded Investors
    https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/etfs/602375/high-yield-etfs-for-income-investors
    *10 High-Yield ETFs for Income-Minded Investors
    These high-yield ETFs show that there's no shortage of ways to balance risk and reward in the quest for better-than-average income.*
    -SPDR Portfolio S&P 500 High Dividend ETF (SPYD,)
    -Invesco KBW High Dividend Yield Financial ETF (KBWD)
    -Vanguard Real Estate ETF (VNQ,)
    _Global X SuperDividend REIT ETF (SRET)
    - iShares Global Energy ETF (IXC)
    -Alerian MLP ETF (AMLP)
    -Amplify High Income ETF (YYY)
    -iShares Broad USD High Yield Corporate Bond ETF (USHY)
    -Vanguard Emerging Markets Government Bond (vwob)
    -Global X U.S. Preferred ETF (PFFD)
    We have couple of these
    Real estates / energy and bank sector are doing quite well posted c19
    Will look more at YYY (carefully) and vwib, may get vwib