Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
In the long run it cannot be good that the only way to keep the wheels spinning involve the government (which borrows 1/3 of the money it spends) to essentially keep buying its own debt.
The easy money was in the Greenspan era. This is the hard money we all owe in order to pay back the easy money sitting in the Wall Street executive's offshore bank accounts. You're welcome to speak to relatives who were alive in the 1930s and make comparisons because I guess you are advocating no intervention after a banking system's near collapse.
Reply to @Hogan: I know we are 5 years removed from the banking system's near collapse, and I know continued government intervention includes paying a "fine" somewhere down the road. Sure, kick the can a little more......and keep telling us the unemployment rate is sinking (its really not). And that stock valuations are still low (no they aren't).
What kind of message does it send that we cannot ween the market off of this artificial activity?
Savings accounts will earn ZERO interest for years to come...and drive investors into riskier investments...until it all falls down again. We needed help in 2008. But now its 2013 and where are we going?
Jobless recovery. Part-timers who want full-time would make the TRUE unemployment rate about 17%. That is to say nothing of those who've given up looking, like myself. The system is rigged for profits to be concentrated at the top, among the richest few. Share buybacks and higher dividends paid to shareholders might keep them happy, but in terms of the Big Picture, it doesn't help the economy and grow jobs. (That from Larry Fink today after the market closed on CNBC.) It was the manufacturing of war machinery and bullets and grenades and tanks and planes that pulled us out of the Great Depression. That lasted from '29 into '39 or '40, with Lend Lease, before Pearl Harbor. These crises take YEARS to recover from. I don't think we are ever going to see the USA as top dog again in terms of political power and economic influence. The gummint has destroyed the surplus. Ronny Ray Guns star-wars, 2 wars on the credit card. Meanwhile, the streets in my city are an adventure to travel upon. Like a war zone, right here!
Reply to @JoeNoEskimo: This is the easiest monetary policy in the country's history and now you have a market firmly addicted to it. You have had talk of taper EVERY FIVE SECONDS on financial BS channels. People were prepared for it. It was a given..... then no taper.
Stimulus? Market ramp. Not taking away stimulus? Market ramp. Slightest hint of taking away stimulus? Market pissed. The economy isn't in a good enough place (Fed outlook downgraded) to take away even $10B of $85B of stimulus a month? Market overjoyed! You have reporters actually asking the effectiveness of QE at press conferences and CNBC reporters (admittedly, the ones at, like 4am, not during the day, of course) asking "How do we get out of this?"
What I find remarkable - and I've said it before on here - is the idea that, what, we're not going to have a recession again? Any mild decline will be met with screams for QE. If we have Yellen - WHO SAID SHE'D VOTE FOR NEGATIVE INTEREST RATES IF SHE COULD - we'll get it. Marc Faber joked on Bloomberg yesterday that Yellen will make Bernanke look hawkish. How does this time period in the economy end?
My question is: how is this not likely to be the last, longest bubble by the time it's all said and done? I say remain invested.
"Savings accounts will earn ZERO interest for years to come...and drive investors into riskier investments...until it all falls down again."
Or is met with more QE again. Or something gets disorderly somewhere (which will probably be met with screams for QE.) The middle and lower class will continue to be eroded and oil will likely continue to hold over $100.
"and I know continued government intervention includes paying a "fine" somewhere down the road."
No, no, no. This is all a free lunch.
Additionally, the Fed was also upset about where mortgage rates were going. One: more people are paying cash than before and two: less first time buyers. You will have people going on and on about "these rates are still so low historically!" (I have family members who had 8% years ago and they had to make the choice right then and there) without pondering what it means that the demand for mortgages dries up when rates move towards 5%.
PS: on CNBC right now: Janet Yellen is front-runner for Fed chair: WH Official. __________
Additionally, this doesn't even get into the student loan situation or the complete inability of this government to work together, the latter likely causing enormous problems yet again this Fall/Winter.
There's a bunch of discussion this morning about the potential government shutdown. Maybe there will be. So, we'll get more QE - you have a reality where the Fed appears to be in the continual role of buying the reality we would like and avoiding anything unpleasant.
I understand the Fed will have to taper but define artificial activity? Businesses receive subsidies all the time isn't that artificial? Wasn't the housing bubble artificial too--all that fake equity stripping going on to fuel the economy for years. The Fed is concerned more with unemployment than inflation right now. I love how some of these Wall Street executives say QE is a give away to the rich (like they ever cared)...so you have to ask yourself why all the anger from Wall Street over not tapering and QE? Because it is really a give away to the people in charge of the economy right now...the little guy. Higher interest rates hurt the little guy and employment right now in my view. It is fun to see the bond vigilantes humbled ;).
Reply to @scott: Well said,Scott.Some of the stories concerning the politician's work for any kind of leverage for either side's position in budget/debt ceiling debate is quite concerning.
Reply to @TSP_Transfer: I don't know, I think the issue of the debt debate is oddly, not as concerning to me from the standpoint of I think something will be worked out and any noise is a buying opportunity. You have a real mentality that debt doesn't matter, moar debt is good and if it's ever a problem, most politicians believe that it will be someone else's problem. It will be worked out because, well, why not?
W have politicians who are so blatantly far removed from caring anything about the people of this country and so focused on various special interest groups.
Additionally, if S & P or anyone else downgrades the US, they will likely just get in trouble.
I guess I don't see the debt ceiling as being "the thing" as much as the problem being the long-term effect of a broken system where politicians consider arguing amongst each other actual activity and don't seem bothered by a lower approval rating from the public than Paris Hilton - and it's both sides. This whole thing of "it's the (fill in the blank)'s fault" is nonsense and an excuse to continue the status quo without really having any sort of defined plan and vision to lead the country forward. Infrastructure improvements that are much needed? Forget it, no one can agree on a street sign.
Meanwhile, as I noted above, middle and lower class continues to erode.
I've said it before - I think people have to devote at least a portion of their portfolio to things higher up the need ladder, such as healthcare and energy. I'll once again note the importance of being globally diversified, as well.
Yeppers. Without their borrowing $85B/month this economy is going into the tank. Trouble is that it's all going to wall street and equities and nothing is trickling down at all. Nada. We're still in the mother of all liquidity traps and the Fed, bless their hearts, are doing the only thing they can to try to keep this sucker afloat. Should be dealt with with fiscal policy - king hell bastard public works program aka the CCC - but they can't agree on the day of the week. Lack of aggregate demand boys and girls - going back to Bush's tax cut (most of which were great) and rono screaming there wasn't enough on the low end of the income ladder for the masses with marginal propensitis to consumer around 1.00. Still isn't.
If and when they ever take the punch bowl away I hope you boys are girls are well diversified.
Bullard: Inflation below target a big deal Removing accommodation when inflation is below the 2% target and falling hurts the Fed's credibility just as much as adding to stimulus were inflation above 2% and rising, the St. Louis Fed's Jim Bullard tells Bloomberg. He worries the FOMC has put too much attention on the employment situation and not the price level.A string of weaker economic data is what led the Fed to delay the taper this week, he says. Decisions going forward - as always - will be data dependent.The rise in interest rates over the summer was a "surprise" for many on the FOMC.
The rise in interest rates over the summer was a "surprise" for many on the FOMC.
If Mr. Bullard and/or others at FOMC were surprised with interest rate changes; one should be concerned about what other aspects of their policies they don't understand or consider going forward.
Or are investors only being "marketed to" ? Not unlike the best of infomercials, or the "gotta have it" ads for every and anything; from the Fed to the largest fund house to the smallest of the investment houses, marketing a thought for going forward is very critical to much planning. The ground must be properly tilled and conditioned before the seed crop is planted.
It is difficult to imagine, that with the massive data collection and ability to process "what if" scenarios; the FED could or should miss anything. But, we all know how this goes.
Anyone know what the investment restrictions are upon employees of the Federal Reserve System; i.e., their internal ethics or conflict of interest policies regarding their personal investment portfolios? The forward information available before public release is the ultimate market timing plan. It does not take much effort to understand the value of such forward information. UPDATE NOTE: 8:40 am, Friday.....Bullard states there may be a small taper in Oct. Duh??? Do these folks need some couch time with a "head doctor"??? link-a-roo
Reply to @catch22: Remember what we discussed, we will call you, don't call us. Your remark indicate to me that you know nothing about how the FOMC. Regards, Ted
Reply to @Mindy: Thanks for your time. Surely the links will be of value for others unfamiliar with the subject matter. I presumed Ted, with what he wrote, had some exceptional or particular facts at hand that he was going to write about here, at MFO; regarding the FOMC. Dead end street with that.
Reply to @catch22: You should be receiving some day next week by third class Snail-Mail, in a plain brown package so no one can tell, FOMC 101. Study Chapters #1& 2 there will be a test in two weeks, and your score will be posted on MFO. Regards, Ted
Whatever you don't like about Catch22, Ted...I for one am tired of your sarcasm. I come here for information and exchange, not to see this stupid running feud. If you don't like what he has to say, why not simply ignore it? Share what you have to share that we might BENEFIT from. Actually, I DO pay attention to everything you put up for us to see. Nothing good can come from the written barbs you continue to stick into him, and which we are all exposed to. I'm not so much indignant on his behalf: "Catch22" is a big boy and can take care of himself. I'm saying that this whole business makes me itch. It bothers ME. And I can't be the only one. JEEZ. Let.It.GO.
Reply to @MaxBialystock: Yes, Max, it does detract from the ambience of MFO and disrupt the discussion. I am quite sick of seeing it and try to ignore (which is the best thing I guess). However, to the extent that someone is discouraged from posting about their investments because some conceited member chooses to denigrate, demean, and otherwise discourage others from posting on a closed fraternity wall, I am embarrassed on behalf of MFO. The esoteric message risks intimidating and/or alienating visitors.
Reply to @MaxBialystock: Max, since we do not for the most part know each other personally we should not take anything personally. If we were to get to know each other we might have a different view of what one says here at MFO. Remember "Everyone is Normal Till You Get to Know Them".
Ted shared once that he is dealing with some health issues and while that is not an excuse for bad manners I will just ignore his ranting's and consider that part of his "personality". I get the feeling he knows some things about investing from his personal experiences which we should listen too.
Reply to @MaxBialystock: Your absolutely right, suggest some Gold Bond for your itch. What a shame I was just beginning the lyrics to Springtime For Catch22. Regards, Ted
Reply to @MaxBialystock: Here's a review of Ted's movie. It is a comedic satire about someone conspiring to produce the worst musical play ever. It did, however, offend many people as I remember.
Thanks, Mindy. Excerpt: "...This musical is sure to offend anyone with out a funny bone and bring nothing but child-like glee to everyone else..." Ya. Reminds me of the bunch of sour old men I went to school with. They had had their sense of humor---all of them--- surgically removed. This movie has to be the funniest film ever created. I always wondered how well "Prisoners of Love" did for the two of them, behind bars? (Grin.)
I am definitely not an expert on FOMC policy or policy watching so, almost by definition, I am not an expert on any connection between FOMC policy and the equity markets reaction to it. There are market gurus and researchers who do practice this discipline with mixed performance results. Almost none of the experts projected a “just stand still” temporary decision.
This FOMC Taper thread has certainly attracted a ton of MFO attention, although not from me – until now.
From the Joe Friday character on the classic “Dragnet” TV series, all I seek is “Just the facts ma’am, just the facts”. I do not treasure blanket opinions that are not supported by detailed statistical data studies.
The FOMC has a demanding dual mandate to mitigate unemployment and inflation on a national scale. In many instances, these are competing target goals. The FOMC is populated by very smart folks who have immediate access to reams of data that we do not. I’m sure they are trying their very best to find a respectable balance; it is obviously not an easy chore.
It is arrogant to postulate that any single person has the “right” answer. It is likely that there is no absolutely “right” answer.
Our systems are so complex that unrealized, unmodeled interactions happen. Also, our systems are dynamic and morph over time. Policies that worked yesterday are not necessarily going to work tomorrow. But the FOMC is best positioned to make a judgment. Obviously, outcomes are not always planned. But the FOMC receives early data and is sufficiently flexible to change. Just like doctors experiment with different medical treatments, the FOMC approaches should be considered experimental and subject to data-driven modification.
And the need for change will be recognized and will be executed. Most likely, given the dynamic structure of our economic/political system, an equilibrium is never fully achieved. We overshoot and undershoot. None of this is life threatening. It can be adjusted in short order.
I suspect that investors magnify the natural unbalance by forecasting (speculating) anticipated Fed actions. The marketplace typically overreacts, especially when the FOMC decision falls in the unexpected category. Betting on what might happen is hazardous duty. However, history shows that the markets quickly adjust to the reality, and long lasting mispricing effects do not persist. There is the heavy pull for a regression-to-the-mean.
As I freely admitted, I am no Fed watcher. But before I posted here, I did a short search for FOMC policy and S&P 500 correlations. Does a meaningful correlation exist? Yes, this issue has been explored. Here is a Link to a useful graph:
The graph displays about 6 years of correlation data. Note that the data are all over the map; these data show both positive and negative correlations. That’s definitely not good news. The correlation is not stable over time, and hence any perceived relationship between FOMC actions and the equity marketplace response to it is unpredictable and unreliable. The correlations are never stronger than the 30 % levels and change sign.
Given the limited magnitudes of the correlation, the FOMC activity never comes close to being a dominant and persistent market factor. Note also a few vertical changes in the correlation plot; that rapid change suggests that it is not fundamentally driven, but is susceptible to volatile investor emotional reactions.
I’m a rookie player in the FOMC ball game. I’m sure you all can find more definitive hard data correlations to buttress positions on this matter. If so, please inform us of correlations and/or interpretations, especially if they differ from what I gleaned from the reference that I posted.
Comments
https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:SLV&ei=5-w5UqCANM_GqQGMnQE&ed=us
https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:GLD&ei=5-w5UqCANM_GqQGMnQE&ed=us
The whole thing is priceless though - Yellen is probably in and you're seeing "meet the new boss, same as the old boss - and maybe more so!"
Additionally, I'll note that I think EM's should be looked at here.
Joe
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/09/18/emerging-market-etfs-surge-after-fed-holds-off-tapering/?mod=WSJBlog&mod=MarketsMain
AND MPLs
Energy MLPs pop on Fed no-taper news
Energy MLPs are spiking higher after the Fed decides not to taper: KMP +2.9%, KMI +4.1%, ETP +2.1%, WPZ +1.2%, WMB +1.1%, EPD +1.9%, PAA +1.2%, EEP +1.3%, MWE +3.1%, MMP +2.4%, ACMP +2.9%, APL +1.8%, DPM +2.4%, SXL +1.5%, BPL +1.1%, PBA +2.3%, TLLP +1.7%.Relevant ETFs: AMJ, AMLP, MLPG, MLPI, MLPN, MLPY, MLPL, MLPW, MLPS, YMLP, MLPA, EMLP, AMU, IMLP, MLPJ, ATMP, YMLI.
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/09/18/no-taper-shocks-wall-street-fed-running-scared/
Thank you, Ben Shalom Bernanke, for keeping us from dealing with reality. Did Obama have him in an arm-bar at the meeting?
What kind of message does it send that we cannot ween the market off of this artificial activity?
Savings accounts will earn ZERO interest for years to come...and drive investors into riskier investments...until it all falls down again. We needed help in 2008. But now its 2013 and where are we going?
Stimulus? Market ramp. Not taking away stimulus? Market ramp. Slightest hint of taking away stimulus? Market pissed. The economy isn't in a good enough place (Fed outlook downgraded) to take away even $10B of $85B of stimulus a month? Market overjoyed! You have reporters actually asking the effectiveness of QE at press conferences and CNBC reporters (admittedly, the ones at, like 4am, not during the day, of course) asking "How do we get out of this?"
What I find remarkable - and I've said it before on here - is the idea that, what, we're not going to have a recession again? Any mild decline will be met with screams for QE. If we have Yellen - WHO SAID SHE'D VOTE FOR NEGATIVE INTEREST RATES IF SHE COULD - we'll get it. Marc Faber joked on Bloomberg yesterday that Yellen will make Bernanke look hawkish. How does this time period in the economy end?
My question is: how is this not likely to be the last, longest bubble by the time it's all said and done? I say remain invested.
"Savings accounts will earn ZERO interest for years to come...and drive investors into riskier investments...until it all falls down again."
Or is met with more QE again. Or something gets disorderly somewhere (which will probably be met with screams for QE.) The middle and lower class will continue to be eroded and oil will likely continue to hold over $100.
"and I know continued government intervention includes paying a "fine" somewhere down the road."
No, no, no. This is all a free lunch.
Additionally, the Fed was also upset about where mortgage rates were going. One: more people are paying cash than before and two: less first time buyers. You will have people going on and on about "these rates are still so low historically!" (I have family members who had 8% years ago and they had to make the choice right then and there) without pondering what it means that the demand for mortgages dries up when rates move towards 5%.
PS: on CNBC right now: Janet Yellen is front-runner for Fed chair: WH Official.
__________
Additionally, this doesn't even get into the student loan situation or the complete inability of this government to work together, the latter likely causing enormous problems yet again this Fall/Winter.
There's a bunch of discussion this morning about the potential government shutdown. Maybe there will be. So, we'll get more QE - you have a reality where the Fed appears to be in the continual role of buying the reality we would like and avoiding anything unpleasant.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/forget-shutdown-debt-hike-is-real-problem-97026.html
http://www.kennypolcari.com/2013/09/19/morning-thoughtsdont-take-away-the-music-try-the-bakedbroiled-salmon-dressed-in-champagne-cream-sauce/
W have politicians who are so blatantly far removed from caring anything about the people of this country and so focused on various special interest groups.
Additionally, if S & P or anyone else downgrades the US, they will likely just get in trouble.
I guess I don't see the debt ceiling as being "the thing" as much as the problem being the long-term effect of a broken system where politicians consider arguing amongst each other actual activity and don't seem bothered by a lower approval rating from the public than Paris Hilton - and it's both sides. This whole thing of "it's the (fill in the blank)'s fault" is nonsense and an excuse to continue the status quo without really having any sort of defined plan and vision to lead the country forward. Infrastructure improvements that are much needed? Forget it, no one can agree on a street sign.
Meanwhile, as I noted above, middle and lower class continues to erode.
I've said it before - I think people have to devote at least a portion of their portfolio to things higher up the need ladder, such as healthcare and energy. I'll once again note the importance of being globally diversified, as well.
Yeppers. Without their borrowing $85B/month this economy is going into the tank. Trouble is that it's all going to wall street and equities and nothing is trickling down at all. Nada. We're still in the mother of all liquidity traps and the Fed, bless their hearts, are doing the only thing they can to try to keep this sucker afloat. Should be dealt with with fiscal policy - king hell bastard public works program aka the CCC - but they can't agree on the day of the week. Lack of aggregate demand boys and girls - going back to Bush's tax cut (most of which were great) and rono screaming there wasn't enough on the low end of the income ladder for the masses with marginal propensitis to consumer around 1.00. Still isn't.
If and when they ever take the punch bowl away I hope you boys are girls are well diversified.
and so it goes,
peace,
rono
Removing accommodation when inflation is below the 2% target and falling hurts the Fed's credibility just as much as adding to stimulus were inflation above 2% and rising, the St. Louis Fed's Jim Bullard tells Bloomberg. He worries the FOMC has put too much attention on the employment situation and not the price level.A string of weaker economic data is what led the Fed to delay the taper this week, he says. Decisions going forward - as always - will be data dependent.The rise in interest rates over the summer was a "surprise" for many on the FOMC.
http://seekingalpha.com/currents/post/1290672
If Mr. Bullard and/or others at FOMC were surprised with interest rate changes; one should be concerned about what other aspects of their policies they don't understand or consider going forward.
Or are investors only being "marketed to" ? Not unlike the best of infomercials, or the "gotta have it" ads for every and anything; from the Fed to the largest fund house to the smallest of the investment houses, marketing a thought for going forward is very critical to much planning. The ground must be properly tilled and conditioned before the seed crop is planted.
It is difficult to imagine, that with the massive data collection and ability to process "what if" scenarios; the FED could or should miss anything. But, we all know how this goes.
Anyone know what the investment restrictions are upon employees of the Federal Reserve System; i.e., their internal ethics or conflict of interest policies regarding their personal investment portfolios? The forward information available before public release is the ultimate market timing plan. It does not take much effort to understand the value of such forward information.
UPDATE NOTE: 8:40 am, Friday.....Bullard states there may be a small taper in Oct. Duh???
Do these folks need some couch time with a "head doctor"???
link-a-roo
Regards,
Ted
You're wide awake and ready to go, eh?
Okay, help all of us here at MFO know about the FOMC. This is an educational site.
Thank you for your time and effort with this assignment.
I'll check back here later.
Away to work, I must go.
Catch
What We Do - http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/whatwedo.html
Code of Conduct - http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/ob43.pdf
Federal Regulations and Blind Trusts http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2008-title5-vol3/xml/CFR-2008-title5-vol3-sec2634-401.xml
Thanks for your time. Surely the links will be of value for others unfamiliar with the subject matter.
I presumed Ted, with what he wrote, had some exceptional or particular facts at hand that he was going to write about here, at MFO; regarding the FOMC.
Dead end street with that.
Oh, well; life goes on, eh?
Catch
Regards,
Ted
Ted shared once that he is dealing with some health issues and while that is not an excuse for bad manners I will just ignore his ranting's and consider that part of his "personality". I get the feeling he knows some things about investing from his personal experiences which we should listen too.
Regards,
Ted
http://www.newyorktheatreguide.com/reviews/producers03.htm
I am definitely not an expert on FOMC policy or policy watching so, almost by definition, I am not an expert on any connection between FOMC policy and the equity markets reaction to it. There are market gurus and researchers who do practice this discipline with mixed performance results. Almost none of the experts projected a “just stand still” temporary decision.
This FOMC Taper thread has certainly attracted a ton of MFO attention, although not from me – until now.
From the Joe Friday character on the classic “Dragnet” TV series, all I seek is “Just the facts ma’am, just the facts”. I do not treasure blanket opinions that are not supported by detailed statistical data studies.
The FOMC has a demanding dual mandate to mitigate unemployment and inflation on a national scale. In many instances, these are competing target goals. The FOMC is populated by very smart folks who have immediate access to reams of data that we do not. I’m sure they are trying their very best to find a respectable balance; it is obviously not an easy chore.
It is arrogant to postulate that any single person has the “right” answer. It is likely that there is no absolutely “right” answer.
Our systems are so complex that unrealized, unmodeled interactions happen. Also, our systems are dynamic and morph over time. Policies that worked yesterday are not necessarily going to work tomorrow. But the FOMC is best positioned to make a judgment. Obviously, outcomes are not always planned. But the FOMC receives early data and is sufficiently flexible to change. Just like doctors experiment with different medical treatments, the FOMC approaches should be considered experimental and subject to data-driven modification.
And the need for change will be recognized and will be executed. Most likely, given the dynamic structure of our economic/political system, an equilibrium is never fully achieved. We overshoot and undershoot. None of this is life threatening. It can be adjusted in short order.
I suspect that investors magnify the natural unbalance by forecasting (speculating) anticipated Fed actions. The marketplace typically overreacts, especially when the FOMC decision falls in the unexpected category. Betting on what might happen is hazardous duty. However, history shows that the markets quickly adjust to the reality, and long lasting mispricing effects do not persist. There is the heavy pull for a regression-to-the-mean.
As I freely admitted, I am no Fed watcher. But before I posted here, I did a short search for FOMC policy and S&P 500 correlations. Does a meaningful correlation exist? Yes, this issue has been explored. Here is a Link to a useful graph:
http://pragcap.com/chart-of-the-day-fed-balance-sheet-size-and-the-sp-500
The graph displays about 6 years of correlation data. Note that the data are all over the map; these data show both positive and negative correlations. That’s definitely not good news. The correlation is not stable over time, and hence any perceived relationship between FOMC actions and the equity marketplace response to it is unpredictable and unreliable. The correlations are never stronger than the 30 % levels and change sign.
Given the limited magnitudes of the correlation, the FOMC activity never comes close to being a dominant and persistent market factor. Note also a few vertical changes in the correlation plot; that rapid change suggests that it is not fundamentally driven, but is susceptible to volatile investor emotional reactions.
I’m a rookie player in the FOMC ball game. I’m sure you all can find more definitive hard data correlations to buttress positions on this matter. If so, please inform us of correlations and/or interpretations, especially if they differ from what I gleaned from the reference that I posted.
Thank you for your anticipated help.
Best Wishes.