@Junkster, can you point toward the book and magazine articles? If you are up a mil over simple SP500 (is this only a few percent of total assets?) in this bull market (and why were you working at all??), this 71yo would like to study up. Will also send you all my moneys and beg you to take on, or guide.

As you can see, I edited my response while you were writing yours. I did try rereading your post until I could see what you were getting at.
I hope you'll read my last (updated) paragraph to see that one can pull off $5 round trips at Fidelity, with the proviso that one leaves a small amount in the TF fund for the next round trip. I have done this, but my round trips unlike yours last years.

I think we have different views on short term trading fees vs what you call routine trading fees. All I know is that TD will charge its regular customers 49.99 to buy a TF fund and 49.99 to sell if sold within 180 days. That is among the most onerous in the business and why I was about to transfer my account to Fidelity where they charge you 49.95 to purchase a TF fund and 0 to sell. But when I found I was only paying 17 to buy and 17 to sell on my short term trades I gladly stayed with TD.

Charles, since March of 2017 been between 40% and 100% IOFIX. Wish I could lie and say I was near 100% going into today but only 55%. Another 30% in DPFNX another bond fund that doesn’t seem to get enough respect for its steady performance. Will add to IOFIX when it has another one of those two day declines or more of where it drops a total of .40% or more. It has had a few this year. They usually appear around the last week of the month every few months or so.
Edit: Because I am a big believer in full disclosure, there were a couple periods beginning the end of December where I was completely out of IOFIX. There were better opportunities the first quarter in other bond funds. Albeit, this year it really hasn’t paid trying to outsmart IOFIX.

@Junkster, have you already written about why ST trading of mfunds is ever a good idea, rather than giving the manager(s) a year or three or four to work their approach ?

Yes I wrote about it in a book long ago as well as a couple seminars, magazine articles. My account is seven figures to the better than had I simply put it in an S&P index fund or scattered my monies among a 1001 funds for diversification purposes. Because I only worked part time, low paying minimum wage type jobs, my total lifetime contributions through 2012 to my IRA beginning in April 1993 was limited to only $76,000. My taxable account only $2200 in 1985. What kind of nest egg would those total contributions have netted this 71 year old now had I simply let it ride in an index fund or followed conventional wisdom?

btw ... i exited ge this week after it dropped below my purchase price of around $12.7 ... had jumped quickly on announcement of selling off oil and health sectors ... but then repeated its decline. extraordinary reversal of fortune for this once great company. not sure if current leadership inspires enough confidence in employees and investors to escape selling off the company wholesale. c

Wrong and more wrong! Where do you get TD doesn’t usually charge a short term redemption fee on their TF funds.

I got it from their schedule of commissions and fees. Any time I am charged something not explicitly stated in a fee schedule I insist that the charge be refunded:

"No-transaction-fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee of $49.99."
https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_us/resources/pdf/TDA4075.pdf

If you prefer web pages, here's TDAmeritrade's pricing page:
https://www.tdameritrade.com/pricing.page

Please note: No-transaction fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee, which is a flat fee of $49.99. This fee is in addition to any fees addressed in the fund's prospectus.

Compare that with Scottrade, that explicitly charged short term fees on

all no load funds, NTF and TF:

Mutual Funds5
...
5In addition to the commissions above, all no-load shares purchased from Scottrade and held 90 days or less will be charged a short-term redemption fee. Exceptions to this short-term redemption fee are the Rydex, Guggenheim, ProFunds and Direxion families of funds, which are intended for short-term traders. ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20170206185458/https://www.scottrade.com/online-brokerage/trading-fees-commissions.html#tab2
From what you wrote, it sounds like you're paying $17 instead of $0 because TDA is still holding you to that old agreement. Cheaper to buy TF funds, but more expensive to sell. The standard (read: usual) TDA schedule is $49.99 to buy, $0 to sell.
If I've missed reading the fee for standard (not grandfathered) TDA customers, I'll gladly acknowledge my error. It's been a long day.

Yes, it must have been a long day. We are talking about transaction fee funds here. And your comment that TD doesn’t charge a short term redemption fee on TF funds. Then you go into a soliloquy on NTF funds showing TD’s schedule of fees for NTF funds. TD charges 49.99 to purchase a TF fund as well as 49.99 to sell if sold within 180 days. Because I am a former Scottrade customer I am charged $17 to buy and $17 to sell if sold within 180 days. I pay $34 per round trip. Among the larger brokerage firms with a large selection of funds ala Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard, and TD, $34 is the lowest price for such round trips. At Scottrade I was charged $17 to purchase a TF fund and an onerous $66 to sell if sold within 90 days.

how long will the recovery from this be?
GWill WaPo
"... left to right, this class has a permanent incentive to run enormous deficits — to charge, through taxation, current voters significantly less than the cost of the government goods and services they consume, and saddle future voters with the cost of servicing the resulting debt after the current crop of politicians has left the scene."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/another-epic-economic-collapse-is-coming/2018/08/17/c26fb12c-a182-11e8-93e3-24d1703d2a7a_story.html

Wrong and more wrong! Where do you get TD doesn’t usually charge a short term redemption fee on their TF funds.

I got it from their schedule of commissions and fees.

"No-transaction-fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee of $49.99."
https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_us/resources/pdf/TDA4075.pdf

Compare that with Scottrade, that explicitly charged short term fees on all no load funds, NTF and TF:

Mutual Funds5
...
5In addition to the commissions above, all no-load shares purchased from Scottrade and held 90 days or less will be charged a short-term redemption fee. Exceptions to this short-term redemption fee are the Rydex, Guggenheim, ProFunds and Direxion families of funds, which are intended for short-term traders. ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20170206185458/https://www.scottrade.com/online-brokerage/trading-fees-commissions.html#tab2
I think we're talking about two different things here. Since the thread was about short term redemption fees, that's what I was addressing - fees added to whatever fee would be charged to sell the shares. Most brokerages don't add a short term fee when selling TF funds. That includes TDA.
Upon a third read, it looks like you may be saying that the total fee for you to sell a TF fund is $17. Not that it is adding a $17 short term redemption fee. So you are paying $17 (grandfathered TF fee) plus $0 short term fee. Which says that TDA is honoring its policy (that most brokerages share) of not adding a short term redemption fee to the sale of any non-NTF fund.
I stand by my statement that TDA doesn't charge a short term redemption fee on TF funds. It still charges a routine fee to sell TF funds, just like most brokerages aside from Fidelity and Schwab.
FWIW, when I buy TF funds at Fidelity, and I do buy a fair amount of them, most of the time I pay $5/transaction. My round trip costs are usually $5. Since I keep a toe hold in funds I like (especially when the fund is closed), I can always add to my minimal position for a $5 fee. Selling costs nothing at Fidelity, and as near as I can tell, Fidelity won't charge me a short term fee for those funds.

Wrong and more wrong! Where do you get TD doesn’t usually charge a short term redemption fee on their TF funds. They charge $49.99 for TF funds held less than 180 days. As for many brokerages charging 0 for exiting a TF fund, they charge you on the entry such as Fidelity’s $49.95. TD grandfathered in for Scottrade account holders $17 for purchases of TF funds and so far at least have been charging $17 for exits. Scottrade charged some $66.00 for exits $17 plus $49. Basically, I am paying $34 total buying and selling a TF fund at TD. That is less than I am charged for the short term trading of a non transaction fee fund there (49.99) as well as trading a transaction fee fund elsewhere. Do you ever do any short term trading of mutual funds? Most likely not so how in blue blazes do you have any hands on experiences to even make such inane and inaccurate comments on the topic??

That is high for exiting a TF position. Many brokerages charge $0 (though they may still limit the number of short round trips you make).
"Fidelity charges a short-term trading fee each time you sell or exchange shares of a FundsNetwork NTF fund held less than 60 days. This fee does not apply to Fidelity funds, money market funds, FundsNetwork Transaction Fee funds, FundsNetwork load funds ..."
"Schwab’s short-term redemption fee of $49.95 will be charged on redemption of funds purchased through Schwab’s Mutual Fund OneSource service (and certain other funds with no transaction fees) and held for 90 days or less." (OneSource is Schwab's name for NTF funds.)
"To discourage short-term trading, E*TRADE Securities will charge an Early Redemption Fee of $49.99 on redemptions or exchanges of no-load, no transaction fee funds that are held less than 90 days."
Even TD Ameritrade doesn't usually charge a short term redemption fee on TF funds. Sounds like you're getting the "short" end of the stick.
"No-transaction-fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee of $49.99."
https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_us/resources/pdf/TDA4075.pdf

That is high for exiting a TF position. Many brokerages charge $0 (though they may still limit the number of short round trips you make).
"Fidelity charges a short-term trading fee each time you sell or exchange shares of a FundsNetwork NTF fund held less than 60 days. This fee does not apply to Fidelity funds, money market funds, FundsNetwork Transaction Fee funds, FundsNetwork load funds ..."
"Schwab’s short-term redemption fee of $49.95 will be charged on redemption of funds purchased through Schwab’s Mutual Fund OneSource service (and certain other funds with no transaction fees) and held for 90 days or less." (OneSource is Schwab's name for NTF funds.)
"To discourage short-term trading, E*TRADE Securities will charge an Early Redemption Fee of $49.99 on redemptions or exchanges of no-load, no transaction fee funds that are held less than 90 days."
Even TD Ameritrade doesn't usually charge a short term redemption fee on TF funds. Sounds like you're getting the "short" end of the stick.
"No-transaction-fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee of $49.99."
https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_us/resources/pdf/TDA4075.pdf

There has been a real inefficiency with TD Ameritrade in the handling of how they charge former Scottrade account holders. More specifically, with their transaction fee funds you get charged only $17 for exiting a position held less than 180 days. On non transaction fee funds it is the $49.99 which you referenced.

I wasn't aware of that, so thanks for the info. I was a Scottrade client. I got charged $49.99 once for a NTF fund held less than 180 days. When I sold that fund I was a little curious if the 180 days rule really applied to former Scottrade clients since Scottrade rule was 90 days.
@msf Yes I definitely need more thinking before initiating a mutual fund position. ☺️

That is high for exiting a TF position. Many brokerages charge $0 (though they may still limit the number of short round trips you make).
"Fidelity charges a short-term trading fee each time you sell or exchange shares of a FundsNetwork NTF fund held less than 60 days. This fee does not apply to Fidelity funds, money market funds, FundsNetwork Transaction Fee funds, FundsNetwork load funds ..."
"Schwab’s short-term redemption fee of $49.95 will be charged on redemption of funds purchased through Schwab’s Mutual Fund OneSource service (and certain other funds with no transaction fees) and held for 90 days or less." (OneSource is Schwab's name for NTF funds.)
"To discourage short-term trading, E*TRADE Securities will charge an Early Redemption Fee of $49.99 on redemptions or exchanges of no-load, no transaction fee funds that are held less than 90 days."
Even TD Ameritrade doesn't usually charge a short term redemption fee on TF funds. Sounds like you're getting the "short" end of the stick.
"No-transaction-fee (NTF) funds (except ProFunds and Rydex) held 180 days or less are subject to a Short-Term Redemption fee of $49.99."
https://www.tdameritrade.com/retail-en_us/resources/pdf/TDA4075.pdf

There has been a real inefficiency with TD Ameritrade in the handling of how they charge former Scottrade account holders. More specifically, with their transaction fee funds you get charged only $17 for exiting a position held less than 180 days. On non transaction fee funds it is the $49.99 which you referenced.

TRP had a 90 day holding period with a 2% 'early trade' penalty and TDA has a 180-day holding period for a $50 'early sale' penalty. I just dumped a TRP at Day 90 to avoid the 2% ... .

T. Rowe began imposing early redemption fees on select funds around the time of the frequent trading scandles involving Dick Strong and other insiders (late 90’s or early 2000s). T. Rowe was not involved. But there were rumors that some of their international funds were being successfully “gamed” by schrewd investors taking advantage of the time disparity between international markets and the U.S. Around that time, SEC began allowing fair value pricing on international funds (another topic) which Price also adapted.
Initially, only a handful of Price’s funds were affected. The list has grown over the years and now extends to some domestic funds as well. Occasionally I’ll forget to check and get tripped-up by one of these fees. To their credit, Price is endeavoring to achieve a fairer playing field for all. Investors who successfully game a fund on a regular basis can/do lower the returns for everyone else. Price rolls these fees back into the affected funds for the benefit of long-term holders.
Price uses “first in / first out” for computation. So you might add to a fund in August and than sell the same amount in September. No fee is applied as long as the amount sold doesn’t exceed the amount you’ve held in the fund for the required period. While 90 days and 2% seems to be the norm, a few funds, like real estate and high yield bond, have only 1% fees. And, one fund (noted below) has a 365-day holding period. This information is published in the Prospectus of each and every T. Rowe Price fund (whether affected or not). Here’s the list of affected funds as near as I can get.
Africa & Middle East
Asia Opportunities
Credit Opportunities
Emerging Europe
Emerging Markets Bond
Emerging Markets Corporate Bond
Emerging Markets Local Currency Bond
Emerging Markets Stock
Emerging Markets Value Stock
Equity Index 500
European Stock
Extended Equity Market Index
Floating Rate
Global Growth Stock
Global High Income Bond
Global Real Estate
Global Stock
High Yield
Intermediate Tax-Free High Yield
International Bond
International Bond Fund (USD Hedged)
International Concentrated Equity
International Discovery
International Equity Index
International Stock
International Value Equity
Japan
Latin America
New Asia
Overseas Stock
QM Global Equity
QM U.S. Small & Mid-Cap Core Equity
QM U.S. Small-Cap Growth Equity
Real Assets
Real Estate
Small-Cap Value
Spectrum International
*Tax-Efficient Equity (365 days)
Tax-Free High Yield
Total Equity Market Index
U.S. Bond Enhanced Index
U.S. High Yield

Actually, for me it's not to raise cash or because of a market dip. Mainly some funds were not well thought through when I bought them, and I want to consolidate my portfolio by dumping the extra ones, the ones I didn't understand enough and the ones that are not doing well. Guess the 180 day rule will make me more sparing in buying a new mutual fund.

OK, for the wanting to consolidate for not understanding the funds and wanting to consolidate. BAD IDEA, if you're selling solely for funds not doing well. This goes into why you should evaluate over a full cycle. Maybe your fund is expect to under-perform in a go-go market like we've experienced. That doesn't mean you need to dumb the fund... If you're doing doing that, then just go passive all day.

Actually, for me it's not to raise cash or because of a market dip. Mainly some funds were not well thought through when I bought them, and I want to consolidate my portfolio by dumping the extra ones, the ones I didn't understand enough and the ones that are not doing well. Guess the 180 day rule will make me more sparing in buying a new mutual fund.

fundalarm and others,
I only mentioned the K-1 because it was issued by an MLP....and preferreds issued by publicly-traded partnerships that issue K-1s, issue K-1s. Non-partnerships do not. And since NSS is a debt instrument, it doesn't issue a K-1 so it should be safe to hold in any account (but it is NOT QDI so probably better to hold in an IRA or other tax qualified account.

i've been buying those for clients. only the QDI paying - equity preferreds that are fixed for a few years and then either get called or start floating with the 3 mo LIBOR and a nice spread. the equity preferreds dont produce K1.

@Ted for a little “higher on the risk spectrum” floating rate preferred (actually a note...it’s debt, not a preferred stock, so no K-1 issues to deal with) to add to something like ALLY-A, maybe look at NSS (NuStar Logistics 7.625% fixed-to-floating subordinated note). It’s yielding approx 9%. Holding about 2% position and not looking to add, but would if it was smaller or I didn’t own it.

i've been buying those for clients. only the QDI paying - equity preferreds that are fixed for a few years and then either get called or start floating with the 3 mo LIBOR and a nice spread. the equity preferreds dont produce K1.

@Ted for a little “higher on the risk spectrum” floating rate preferred (actually a note...it’s debt, not a preferred stock, so no K-1 issues to deal with) to add to something like ALLY-A, maybe look at NSS (NuStar Logistics 7.625% fixed-to-floating subordinated note). It’s yielding approx 9%. Holding about 2% position and not looking to add, but would if it was smaller or I didn’t own it.

VWIGX has 8.1% of its holdings in the USA. Amazon is its 4th largest holding. This is not a bad thing but it does mean the fund is not a foreign fund but an international one.

VWIGX keeps showing up on my screeners...low ER.. Large Cap Foreign Growth fund.
Here its footprint:

I Hold FMIJX. Since its inception (2010) it has provided a smoother ride. I believe charting other funds against FMIJX will reveal the volatility of other funds (both over and under) and might be a tool for identifying when these funds are over performing or under performing.
Comparing FMIJX to (VWIGX, DODFX,& MSILX) since inception:

Since the 1/26/2018 market high:

Ted: TX for posting this -- fascinating.
(PWK -- DOB 1933)