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Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
  • Let's Iron out some things
    @VintageFreak,
    I have been doing the same thing. American Century made it easy for me by opening a new fund ASDVX. Short duration of less than 3 years. Investment grade and high yield instruments from anywhere including emerging markets. Preferred stocks. I had been looking at Schwab but since this was in a rollover account the paperwork was a consideration.
    I was 80/20 stocks to fixed, now after a couple of moves including the above I am about 65/35.
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    Hi Mrdarcy,
    No convincing is necessary.
    On many past postings I documented that my current portfolio is divided about equally between passive and active funds. Recently, I decided to shift more towards a passive mix without abandoning active management completely. Active funds do have a place.
    I plan a core Index dominated portfolio with a satellite active component. I expect a final mix of perhaps 80/20 or 70/30 passive to active components.
    Many studies demonstrate that active funds outdistance passive products about 20% to 50% of the time, never predictable ahead of time, and never persistently.
    The database includes stuff like the S&P. SPIVA scorecard and Persistency semi-annual studies and the Gus Sauter Vanguard work referenced earlier. Many others exist.
    I don't mind a little leg pulling since it permits me to cite additional data sources. I have never submitted a post without quoting statistics that I culled from what I evaluated at least as semi~reliable from an honest source. This derives directly from my engineering background when preparing work proposals. Trust, but verify.
    Thanks for the opportunity.
    Best Wishes.
  • Safety in Numbers – Not Necessarily
    I think the poster in question has a system where he can monitor his holdings. Maybe a computer application? He seems to do well with it and I commend him for that.
    Simplicity does have its place. I know I
    could never monitor 50 + funds. I have 9 holdings and that's enough for me.
    As far as the argument of which type of investment plan works best, it's a wash. There are too many variables. It is easy to pick out funds on each side to make one side look better than the other. It's the old passive versus active argument.
    In this case I would say that both you and the other poster are right.
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    I’m immediately just a little leery when an author tosses out an extremely high, unrealistic percentage claim without justification. Additionally, he highlights that number in the title of the article. What about you guys? Does it strike a skeptical chord with you? It does with me.
    I’m apprehensive that anyone ever claimed that Index portfolios outdistanced active fund managed equivalents 90% of the time for any fund category for any extended timeframe. I doubt it ever happened.
    Um...
    From January 9th:
    The active route is more challenging with a likelihood of Index out-performance that is in the 10 % to 30 % range depending on time horizon and number of active funds within the portfolio.
    On some level I'm just pulling your leg. But it is an honest question whether there is any evidence that would convince you of the utility of an active strategy.
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    Hi Guys,
    I’m immediately just a little leery when an author tosses out an extremely high, unrealistic percentage claim without justification. Additionally, he highlights that number in the title of the article. What about you guys? Does it strike a skeptical chord with you? It does with me.
    I’m apprehensive that anyone ever claimed that Index portfolios outdistanced active fund managed equivalents 90% of the time for any fund category for any extended timeframe. I doubt it ever happened.
    I suspect that the author constructed a straw-man target that could easily be burned. I addressed this fraudulent method in an earlier post. Here’s the internal Link to that post:
    http://www.mutualfundobserver.com:80/discuss/discussion/14757/charlie-munger-interview-comments
    I am very familiar with active versus passive fund studies with results that are timeframe and category dependent. Just about all these studies show an advantage to the passive game plan. However, results are never 90% one-sided. In the investment universe, a 70% outcome advantage is outstanding.
    The brief study that the writer referenced also seemed a bit sloppy in its construction. Various asset classes were tested against an S&P 500 Index benchmark. The active fund results should have been more carefully measured against a fair representative benchmark.
    The Gus Sauter study that was mentioned can be found as follows:
    https://global.vanguard.com/international/web/pdfs/INTAPR.pdf
    Except for the highly skilled, both very talented and extremely lucky investor, the Sauter study basically reinforces the case for passive investing. I would anticipate nothing less from a Vanguard son.
    I encourage you to read the study very carefully. It examines both the US and the European mutual fund marketplace. In the US world, only 14% of the actively managed funds outperformed an Index in both excess returns and in reduced risk. Another 21% also generated excess returns above Index returns, but at a higher risk level. So 65% of the active portfolios delivered less than their Indices.
    Sauter also concluded that the relative outcomes would more heavily favor the Index strategy as the number of active funds increased from the three level that was explored in the study.
    I hope this clears away some of the fog.
    Best Wishes.
  • Safety in Numbers – Not Necessarily
    Hi Guys,
    A few days ago I was shocked by the number of mutual funds owned by a wise and loyal MFO member. I didn’t examine the incremental diversification benefits accrued by the overall funds or their individual investment philosophies; I simply counted.
    I’m sure the owner had excellent reasons and logic when these funds were originally added to his portfolio. I’m equally sure that the styles and the strategies deployed by such a competitive group tend to cancel each other out and neutralize a potential high excess returns.
    Diversification is a cardinal investment rule; it is the stuff of successful investing. Well maybe, but more likely it must be exercised prudently; it has its own set of limits. Safety in numbers is a residual human characteristic from our hunter-gatherer days.
    J. Paul Getty opined that “Money is like manure. You have to spread it around to make things grow”. Warren Buffett proffered the other viewpoint with “Buy two of everything in sight and you end up with a zoo instead of a portfolio”. Economist and financial advisor Mark Skousen summarized both sides with this wealth-linked compromise: “To make it concentrate, to keep it diversify”.
    Assembling a huge number of actively managed mutual funds in multiple categories is almost a 100% guarantee of underperformance relative to any reasonable benchmark. That failure guarantee is mostly tied to active fund management fees. It is true that some superior fund managers do overcome the fees hurdles, but these are few in number and even this minority subset is further eroded by persistency problems over time.
    A recent study that illuminates this issue was released by Rick Ferri a year or so ago. It is a Monte Carlo-based parametric study that has been referenced on MFO earlier. Here is a Link to it:
    http://www.rickferri.com/WhitePaper.pdf
    You can use these study results to estimate your likelihood of selecting a group of active fund managers that potentially might outdistance a passive portfolio, and importantly, by how much.
    The overarching findings from this extensive analysis is that the odds are not especially satisfying, and that the likely excess returns are negative. Notwithstanding these unhealthy findings, they do not completely close the door for active portfolio elements. However, these results do put a hard edge on the low probabilities and the negative expectations.
    To illustrate, assume that an investor has somehow increased his likelihood of choosing a positive Alpha fund manager to 70 percent by applying an undefined meaningful fund manager selection process. That’s actually quite high given the poor historical record of individual investors. Using Ferri’s numbers for a 3-component portfolio (40% US equity, 20% International equity, 40% Investment grade bonds), the likely outperformance median return is 0.52% while the underperformance median is -1.25%. That asymmetry reflects cost and fee drags.
    The prospective excess returns coupled to a 70% chance of selecting a superior active manager is (0.7 X 0.52) + (0.3 X -1.25) = -0.011. So, an investor needs to have a higher than 70% active fund manager selection probability before he can anticipate a net positive excess return for his efforts. That’s a tough task.
    The situation deteriorates rapidly as more active managers are added to the mix within each investment category. In the sample scenario, the likelihood of hiring two successful active fund managers is simply 0.7 X 0.7 = 0.49 without impacting the median expected excess return numbers.
    The probabilities of generating excess rewards from active management falls from neutral to bad to worse very rapidly. The bottom-line is that hiring a ton of active fund managers adds to investment risk without substantially enhancing the rewards side of the equation. Charles Ellis might well characterize this as a Losers game.
    Twenty years ago the investment game was a lot easier to play. Market efficiency has improved over time and has reduced the opportunities for excess profits just like improvements in baseball pitching staff depth has improved to lower overall batting averages.
    At that time, it was investor against investor on trades; today the trades are much more commonly executed on an institution against institution basis. And these institutions are populated by well educated, smart professionals who are supported by extensive research staff and super computers for numbers crunching. The chances for an individual investor to outplay these titans has dimmed over the decades.
    I don’t mean to say that it can’t happen because it does happen. But it’s not an easy chore. Institutional agencies have their own set of hobgoblins to battle. Since retirement, I have been benchmarking my private portfolio against an Index benchmark that I vary as my asset allocation changes, and against a nice pension that is tied to a portfolio maintained by a highly regarded financial service organization.
    Anecdotally, over most of my retirement, my personal portfolio was dominated by active fund holdings. I slightly underperformed the Index benchmark, but I frequently outperformed my pension portfolio. I don’t have access to the pension portfolio’s specific allocations, but I suppose they are more widely and more conservatively distributed than my personal portfolio. They have access to alternate investment products that I can not touch.
    One takeaway from all this is that some active managers can deliver the goods, but they are a rare breed. So choose carefully, monitor diligently, and very definitely limit the number of active managers that you hire for your portfolio(s). That’s just my amateurs opinion.
    Simplifying is wonderful. It will certainly add to your free time; it will likely enhance your portfolio returns, especially if you use active fund management.
    Best Regards.
  • Gundlach's DoubleLine Funds See 6th Straight Month Of Inflows
    FYI: - Jeffrey Gundlach's DoubleLine Funds had net inflows of $603 million in July, with its flagship DoubleLine Total Return Bond Fund attracting net inflows of $375 million.
    Regards,
    Ted
    http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid=USL2N0Q727Z20140801
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    Hi Andy- Yes, I'd think that 25 to 30% would be a pretty good number for that.
  • CM Advisors Defensive Fund to liquidate
    Minimum investment $250,000 danario. Possible bone in the soup.
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    Good piece, backing up the clear tendency of market-cap indexes to be great on the way up and very un-great on the way down. It's amazing how something as simple as the clearly documented record of those indexes in up- and down-markets escapes the cognition of the 'indexes are all you need, now and forever' commenters.
    I'd been thinking the reason there's been so much of that sentiment flying around the finance sphere is that many of those making said comments must be thinking only in terms of the standard return periods, and any of those from 1-5 years show market-cap indexes as brilliant choices because the last 5y neatly coincides with the latest bull market - clearly the sweet spot of a market cap index.
    One of the best analyses of an optimal stake in stock indexes in a long-term portfolio came from, believe it or not, Gus Sauter, former bigwig at Vanguard (sorry, no link, haven't been able to find it recently), which took into account many years of data and concluded that something like 30%, but no more, of a stock portfolio in index funds made an optimal contribution to long-term returns.
  • assume most saw this (passive vs active, yet again)
    This surely won't sit well with MJG. First, Charlie Munger on academic theory:
    "Academics love EMH  because they can claim that they have mathematics-based formulas which can predict the future even though the underlying assumptions (borrowed from physics) are provably false." "Life is infinitely more interesting for an academic if they can create beautiful mathematics in their papers." "I understand its seductiveness to people with large mathematical gifts. It just had a difficulty in that the fundamental assumption did not tie properly to reality.”
    And now this!!
    "Specifically, there were no time periods in which the S&P 500 outperformed 90% of mutual funds. The index was a middle-of-the-road performer in most of the 24 separate time period/peer group combinations we studied ."
  • HYD holding up better then HYG
    HYG trading like stocks and down from high of 95.43
    HYD down from high of 30.58 The question is if the last 2 days decline was due to US bonds weakness or the usual(LY) post distribution decline.
  • John Waggoner: Learning From Argentina's Woes
    To say again:
    This country has been in some form of default for at least the last 50 years.
    The government(s) continues to trample the citizens and their monies.
    Any hedge fund or others who assume to be enlightened towards investing in this country apparently have not studied and do not understand or have knowledge of the modern history of the country; and perhaps think they know how to work the system of investments there or just feel lucky.
    Without a doubt, some of the folks who are on the losing end of these investments right now are just pissed about their skills and judgements.
    Numerous articles are readily discovered regarding these circumstances.
  • Currency ETFs or funds...anyone?
    From article:
    "The US Federal Reserve has begun to pivot. Monetary tightening is coming sooner than the world expected, with sober implications for overheated bourses, and for those in Asia, eastern Europe and Latin America that drank deepest from the draught of dollar liquidity.
    We can expect a blistering dollar rally, perhaps akin to the early 1980s or the mid-1990s. It is fortuitous that the BRICS quintet of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa have just launched their $100bn monetary fund to defend each other's currencies. Some of them may need it."

    My Take:
    The British Sterling pound has had a great price appreciation over the past year. With low borrowing rates and a strong currency the real estate market in England also shot higher. If interest rates rise as the US Dollar rises I see less upside to US Real Estate valuation, but if the Fed can keep home mortgage rates low watch for US Real Estate to benefit from a stronger dollar.
    Article Link below image:
    image
    Fed-kicks-off-global-dollar-squeeze-as-Janet-Yellen-turns-hawkish
  • Sectors Oversold
    FYI: Yesterday's steep decline left four of ten S&P 500 sectors in oversold territory, and three more are set to open oversold based on red futures this morning. Consumer Staples and Industrials are both more than 3 standard deviations below their 50-days, which is as extreme as it gets. When sectors get that oversold, you typically see a near-term bounce.
    Regards,
    Ted
    http://www.bespokeinvest.com/thinkbig/2014/8/1/sectors-oversold.html?printerFriendly=true
  • John Waggoner: Learning From Argentina's Woes
    FYI: For investors, the lesson from Argentina's default Wednesday should be, "If you can't take a loss, don't invest in emerging markets with a bad history of debt repayment." No one said investment maxims have to be catchy.
    Regards,
    Ted
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/waggoner/2014/07/31/learning-from-argentinas-woes/13415969/
  • Gross Left Behind In Pimco Return To The Top As Deputies Rise
    @JohnChism Depending on which Arnott funds you are talking about, you may have not liked them for the past 5 years (March 9, 2009) or so, up until a few days ago.
  • Wellington Fund And The Vanguard Family Tree
    Some excerpts from a Memo written by John Bogle July 9, 2014
    http://johncbogle.com/wordpress/category/memos-to-principals-and-veterans/
    July 9, 2014
    To: My Fellow Vanguard Veterans and Principals
    My 63rd Anniversary
    Monday, July 9, 1951, was the first day of my long career in the mutual fund industry. I vividly remember walking into the Wellington Fund offices on 1420 Walnut Street in Philadelphia
    Little could I have imagined that I would remain with Wellington/ Vanguard for 63 years
    Much of what was to follow was due to the ethical values and financial wisdom of my great mentor and friend, Walter L. Morgan, who did his best to impart them to his heir-apparent.
    Walter Morgan was the founder and chief of Wellington Fund and Wellington Management Company, and (as I once wrote to him) he gave me his confidence when I had little confidence in myself. Then, Wellington employed maybe 75 people, and supervised $150 million of assets for the shareholders of its single mutual fund. (Tiny by today’s standards, but then one of this industry’s ten largest firms.)
    You all probably know about how my career at Wellington ended (I was fired from my position as chief executive in January 1974), fortuitously opening the door to my creation of Vanguard only seven months later
    It was, as they say, the opportunity of a lifetime—a chance to build something new and better for our mutual fund shareholders. The three pillars of our fledging firm were our unique mutual structure, the world’s first index mutual fund, and the unprecedented conversion to a distribution system without a sales force
    Still strong, if perhaps diminished (your call on both!), I continue to use those powers to speak out for giving all mutual fund shareholders a better chance to accumulate wealth; for reform in an industry that has come to emphasize marketing over management; for the requirement that every firm that touches other people’s money be subject to high standards of fiduciary duty and trusteeship
  • Wellington Fund And The Vanguard Family Tree
    From Wiki:
    "Walter L. Morgan (July 23, 1898 – September 2, 1998) was the founder of the Wellington Fund, the first balanced mutual fund in the United States....... He graduated from Princeton University in 1920, and shortly thereafter became the youngest CPA in Pennsylvania. In the 1920s Morgan raised $100,000 from relatives and business people to create what he believed to be a stable investment portfolio. The Industrial and Power Securities Company was established in 1928. It was later renamed the Wellington Fund in honor of the Duke of Wellington. Wellington Management Company was incorporated in Philadelphia in 1933. In 1951 Morgan hired John C. Bogle who became his heir at the company"
    The Duke of Wellington was Arthur Wellesley.
    So two famous mutual funds are named after this Duke of Wellington, the second one being:
    Vanguard Wellesley Income Inv VWINX