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Yeap. Very much looking forward to it!To each his own. :) Did I read that you are a new subscriber to the data side of MFO? I hope you have as much fun with it as I do.
MStar. Currently showing: 0.11 / -4.48 at 5 / 10 y for VSMIX, which is a notable improvement in just a couple of days. One might say that m-stars are moving in your favor...A five year run at MFO runs from March through February at this point. I am curious where you got the negative alpha for VSMIX? Portfolio Visualizer also shows a positive number starting from January 2019.
To be fair, unlike Godot, Mr. Cinnamond does come by bearing gifts worth more than a buck 28 from time to time. Though, those who have chosen to wait for him always hope that he does so sooner rather than later... :)Is my approach "simpler" than leaving the allocations to a few managers like Cinnamond? I suppose most would say not. OTOH, I'm reasonably certain that the funds I own are actually investing in what they advertise, rather than waiting for Godot. And none of my funds charge me a buck 38 for the pleasure of their company.
Indeed, I used the daily. That would explain the difference.M* now provides Drawdown data for 3, 5, 10 yrs only. How did you get the data for 2009? From M* Chart? Old file data?
Yeap. M* Chart.
Depending on the time window used, M* charts may display daily, weekly or monthly data.
Max Drawdowns at M*, MFO Premium, etc use monthly data.
My guess is that M* Chart display you looked at around 2009 had daily or weekly display that made MaxDD higher.
Depending on the time window used, M* charts may display daily, weekly or monthly data.M* now provides Drawdown data for 3, 5, 10 yrs only. How did you get the data for 2009? From M* Chart? Old file data?
Yeap. M* Chart.
I hope not. I have years of experience w Cinnamond and have a reasonable expectation that this will be the case, but most cannot predict the future w 100% accuracy. Those who can grow their money at a double-exponential rate, causing them to spend less time on forums...The main problem withI think you touched on several good points. I mentioned Arnott before. Both did well when markets went down, but since 2009, PAUIX had a terrible performance compared to the easy SPY. Finding compelling risk-reward funds is what I have done since 2000. It is part of my system, but I stopped following Cinnamond more than 10 years ago.I've not been a fan since losing money investing in ARIVX (I think that was Cinnamond's first solo adventure with his "disciplined" style).
I won't try to defend Mr. Cinnamond's record or explain why I find his approach compelling - I've done this on adifferent thread - and I can sympathize with the feelings one gets from a losing investment that sometimes takes year not to pay off. But to correct something you have said for others: ARIVX was Cinnamond's third fund as a manager and, I believe, second as a lead after ICMAX.
In my experience (and I've invested in three Cinnamond funds), his funds tend to go through a long period of flat performance, followed by fairly rapid appreciation bursts, followed by another period of flat performance. All of this can be readily understood within the technicalities of his style. So, when one is unfortunate to invest towards the end of the run, losses - though rather modest losses - would follow should one sell out before the next run or if Cinnamond decides to liquidate the fund (as he - rather objectionably, imo - did with ARIVX).
To be fair, if you wait for and hold on through the run, the returns might be quite impressive. I've invested early in ARIVX and did make money on it. Similarly, ICMAX returned ~ 100% over Cinnamond's tenure there (roughly, 2006 - 2011) while SP500 barely broke even during that time.
The guy also jumps from one fund to another = not a great idea.
The main problems:
1) Is he going to be another Arnott in the next 5 years?
My personal investment horizon is 5 - 10 y.2) How much patience is someone supposed to have?
Currently ~ 10% of retirement, but I have just learned of his new fund and may invest more in the future. The main thing holding me back is not Cinnamond's investment approach, but what he did in liquidating ARIVX. To put it bluntly, imo, that was gutless and he let a lot of people down who trusted him to work through the cycle. If that is something you find significant, I am with you 100%.3) What % of your portfolio are you investing with him? The less you invest, the more it's insignificant. For me this is major.
As I tried to explain before, I do not believe myself to be a capable market timer. At most, I pick an investment and look for a good entry point over a few weeks. However, if I were to judge a good entry point for myself, based on my experience w Cinnamond ("flat-burst-flat" [repeat]), I would be most comfortable doing so when his fund has been flat for a while - one of the reasons I invested a substantial amount in PVCMX right after learning about it a few days ago. His max DD's also tend to be rather small, so the main risk - in my eyes - is opportunity cost.4) How do you know when in the start, middle, or end of the cycle? Remember, markets can be irrational for a lot longer than you think. Prof Shiller claimed in 2012, based on valuation, that SPY would make only 4% after inflation in the next 10 years, it made 11%
(link)
I think you are misinterpreting Cinnamond's strategy - or, else, I misunderstand it. The way I see it, he looks for "value" and will buy it in any market irrespective of timing. If he is low on equity, it means he simply cannot find enough value available.5) Cinnamond plays timing hugely, owning less than 20% in stocks is difficult to grasp.
But, I'm a flexible investor who looks beyond categories and is interested in total portfolio risk-reward performance.
Someone's style and goals matter a lot when selecting funds.
How many funds do you own, what trading are you doing,
Unfortunately, MStar no longer provides the record for ARIVX and I could not find another place to chart it w div. I'd invested very early on, perhaps, in the first couple of months - since I followed Cinnamond from ICMAX - w a decent entry point. I remember I was net positive in the end but would not venture on the %. If you can find where to chart it, I would be curious of the PRWCX comparison, since I also own that fund.I've invested early in ARIVX and did make money on it.
What % did you make less than SPY or PRWCX?
Hi FD100,Hi yugo,
I invest where markets tell me.
1995-2000 US LC 100% indexes
2000-2010 Value, SC, international mainly in 3 funds FAIRX,OAKBX, SGIIX
Since 2010 mainly US LC+ PIMIX until 2018. Then mainly bond funds.
In 2009 PAUIX(Arnott) + Cinsmond looked great, 6 months after the bottom they lagged badly, I sold both and never bought again.
The idea is not to fight markets but to join them. In my world managers must be at the top 30% in the last 3-6 (maybe 9 months). If they don't I sell, I don't care why they lag. So, this easy system guarantee that my funds are at the top. I also look at risk-adjusted performance.
I think FPACX is a good fund and would not have raised the issue if we were discussing funds per se. It just looks to me - especially after the above attempt at analysis - that active management has not contributed much to its performance. It's like an index+ fund: e.g., a better version of ~ VBIAX w > $50B, some of which might be better served by FPACX, imo. If one is looking for a manager to steward their investments, though, the above would suggest that Mr. Giroux/PRWCX might be the better choice. (But, perhaps, I have overlooked something and so welcome any evidence to the contrary.)I don't find FPACX compelling.
Yeap. M* Chart.M* now provides Drawdown data for 3, 5, 10 yrs only. How did you get the data for 2009? From M* Chart? Old file data?
Investing is analogous to sport in many aspects - finding the business with compelling underlying value at the right time. That is Warren Buffet’s approach. For most of us, investing in S&P500 index would capture most of the recent tech sector advancement. Some active managers did an excellent job in navigating the market. Bonds are more tricky in my opinion.And it's all about finding an edge for the next game.
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