Hi
@BobCYou noted in your Retirement Planning write: "Folks who have a
pension account, such as public employees or state teachers, will already have received an estimate of their benefits, based on when they retire. Regardless of the kind of retirement account, tax planning is important,
since there is a good chance it will be necessary to file quarterly estimated tax payments. Tax planning allows me to know what I must set aside for taxes and what net, after-tax dollars I will have available for cash flow."
>>>I will add that defined pension benefit plans payments from private employers, to their employees and survivors are still a fairly large group in Michigan and your home state from the remains of the big 3 auto companies. Many other private companies also offered defined pension benefit plans and other benefit packages in order to compete for qualified employees against the benefits packages of the big 3 auto companies, especially in the 1960's-1980 era. The client base in your area may find more public employee pension packages.
>>>As to quarterly estimated tax payments for any form of pension; one may file form W-4P to instruct the pension payer as to an amount/percentage to withhold for federal and/or, if one chooses, state of residence taxes, too. The dollar amount of taxes withheld will be indicated on the next tax year 1099-R from the pension payer. At this point, one fills the required entries on the Fed. 1040/state tax form. Tax planning stills applies to "estimate" how much tax to be withheld via form W-4P, if this method is used. With so many individual/couple variables in place, one may find a slight over or underpayment of taxes with the following year tax filing. One can generally get very close, so as to not trigger an underpayment penalty. For this scenario, one should not need to "set aside" a large amount at year end for a tax liability; nor be bothered with quarterly tax filings.
I may stand corrected on any of the above. Please add or comment, as needed.
My 2 cents worth.
Take care,
Catch
Comments
In your column titled, "When should I start retirement plan withdrawals?", you mentioned that you were well in advance of RMD's, but weren't particularly precise as to when you should actually start retirement plan withdrawals other than planning for RMDs when you were 70 1/2. Were you planning to wait until this point in time before you withdrew funds from your IRA?
There were two threads which touched on taking funds from IRA's prior to 70.5, specifically to reduce overall tax liabilities...these threads are:
http://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/31111/making-sell-decisions-for-income-managing-the-distribution-of-your-accumulation/p1
and
http://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/32083/withdrawal-calculator-for-roth-vs-trad-ira-wrt-taxes#latest
Bob...given your background, do you have any guidance regarding IRA withdrawals in advance of the time where RMDs kick in?
I started withdrawals from both mine and my wifes self directed ira accounts in the years when we turned 66.5. I did this not because we needed the money but for a couple of reasons. 1) By starting before RMD's kicked in we were able to withdraw in a fashion to better manage and receive the best income taxation outcome. 2) Since, we did not need the money currently to live off of we added to our taxable investment portfolios. And, 3) By starting early this help to bleed some money off of the IRA's and is helping to keep their balances from growing as fast as they would have without the early withdrawals so when the RMD's do start the IRA balances will be less to apply the RMD factor.
There is an old saying ... "Pay me now or pay me more later." And, I chose to start paying them now (hopefully less) rather than more later.
Knowing, from your previous writes, that you dig into details; I find that your method of reducing the current and eventual taxation of tax sheltered accounts to be the opposite of what our process would be/is at this house.
I will also presume that your method of taking distributions now from tax sheltered investments versus taxable investments has shown to be the best path/method as determined by forward calculations.
There are many variables within individual/spousal and extended (inheritance) family circumstances which may guide how taxable and tax sheltered monies are sold as needed or as required by law (RMD); or as you noted, if I understand properly, to keep taxation to the minimum; both now and into future years. You and yours may have inherited securities in taxable accounts at a cost basis that would not prove to be of benefit for taxes, if sold now and plan to pass these along to others.
I'm attempting to wrap my brain cells around the thought of reducing tax sheltered investments before the RMD and place some of the monies into taxable accounts along with other taxable accounts already in place; that at the very least would generate some yearly taxation from distributions of short/long term capital gains and dividends.
NOTE: We do not hold any investments in currently taxable accounts. Therefore, we have not had to calculate taxation involving the sale of taxable investments versus pre-RMD investment sells to maximize the reduction of an annual taxation. We have an emergency money stash at a local financial institution; that with a large emergency money need, would receive an infusion from an IRA.
Surely, there 1,000's of articles regarding RMD and other account type draw down methods near or in retirement. I have linked one write below.
A Vanguard view: https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/icrsp.pdf
Skeeter, I do not expect or request a 10 page reply to this; as I'm just "thinking/writing out loud in this text box" here. No justification is needed for anyone's particular path to handling this type of choice.
Other opinions most welcomed. I now need another large coffee.
Regards,
Catch
I am personally going to consider withdrawing some of my tax deferred traditional IRA between the age of (59.5 - 65) to fund my HSA (Health Savings Account). This will reduce my IRA balance by about (6*($4400 + COLA)). Not a huge deal, but the taxes due on these tax deferred IRA distributions will be offset by the HSA tax credit. Every little bit helps.
These (T.IRA to HSA) contributions lower my T.IRA balance, eliminated the tax burden and placed these dollars into tax free status (that grow tax free) so long as I use them for medical expenses.
No harm, no foul if I don't use them for medical expenses. HSA distributions used for any other reason are taxed just as if they came out of a tax deferred IRA, but they do not have RMDs.
I may also revisit the idea of Roth conversions during the years between the age of (59.5 - 70) once Trump / Congress pass their tax reforms. Roth conversions are best accomplished during years of lower income and lower tax brackets. RMDs often push individuals into higher tax brackets therefore Roth conversions may potentially lower taxes depending on your overall taxable income. This may also help to lower medicare premiums that are impacted by income levels.
Taxes are always an important consideration, especially in retirement.
Everyones situation is different along with their philosophy of how to do things (which often differ).
By taking the ira distribution now and paying the taxation leaves a good sum that can be re-invested outside of the ira. By investing the remaing sum and through investment return on these money I am letting time and the capital appreciation received on these monies in essence pay the ira tax bill which was at my taxable income rate.
Now when I start taking money from the reinvested IRA distribution monies held in a taxable account I'll be paying the more favorable longterm captial gains rate vs. the income tax rate I first paid plus I let re-investment (in my way of thinking, "Mr. Market") pay Uncle Sam his first tax bill and the second tax bill is paid (by me) at the long term capitals gains rate (thus a savings by my perspective).
Nothing complex ... In theory, just letting Mr. Market pay my first tax bill through my investing activity and then I pay at the second at the long term capital gains rate on any following distributions from the taxable account.
I guess, a lot depends on how you look at things and assess the matter.
As long as I pay attention.
I don't use an HSA...but am considering it. As for transferring money from an IRA to an HSA, I believe I read you could only do that once in your lifetime, and with a limit of about $7,750 this year. As I would burn through that in about 3 months, I wasn't sure if the hassle were worth it.
Since the remaining sum is coming from a traditional IRA, you can either leave it in a taxable account (as you're doing) or move it into a Roth IRA (conversion).
Leaving it in a taxable account makes any gain on that money taxable. At best, that's at cap gains rates (assuming the investment is 100% tax efficient, spinning off no nonqualified divs or interest). At very, very best, that's a 0% rate (if you're in the 15% tax bracket when you sell shares). In most cases, you'll wind up paying something along the way, since little is 100% efficient (e.g. if you ever want to change your investments, including rebalancing).
Putting the remaining sum in a Roth truly leaves it 100% tax efficient (so long as you wait five years before drawing earnings - you can always withdraw the converted amount tax-free). That's not only a win, but a double win, because it reduces your income for SS purposes. (SS is taxed based on your AGI; Roth distributions don't count as income, but the earnings on your taxable account, even if invested in munis, do count.)
Why not move the money to Roths? If you change your mind, you can pull the converted money out at any time, and in a few years you can pull the earnings. Virtually no downside.
I did not write, but the Roth conversion crossed my mind, too; as a consideration for rotating monies, paying the conversion tax now and not adding more into taxable investments.
Thank you.
Catch
@Mona gets credit for the calculator. Thanks as well.
What you are referring to is correct. There is a one time rollover that you can do from an IRA to a HSA. The amount is based on your HSA status (single vs family). Being single and over 50, I was able to rollover $3300 (the single limit at the time) + $1000 (catchup provision). This rollover can happen at any age, but as you mentioned just once.
What I am referring to are normal distributions that come out at age 59.5 from my T. IRA for the specific purpose of funding my HSA. These T. IRA distribution are taxable, but since I am also making an equal HSA contribution (which I receive a tax credit for) I in effect cancel out the tax I would normally pay on the distribution. Basically I am earmarking part of my T. IRA as the funding source for my HSA. Prior to 59.5, I was earmarking other taxable income as my funding source, which obviously I also got a tax credit for.
HSA contributions end when Medicare kicks in so the window for these "T.IRA distributions / HSA contributions" have about a 6 year window (59.5 - 65).
We have a number of clients who, even with the RMDs, tell us "we don't need the money now". We have the custodian withhold federal and state (when required) taxes, then journal the after-tax dollars to a TOD or other non-qualified account where it will grow until needed. Some decide to do a direct charitable contribution with their RMDs, which alleviates making donations from cash flow, and is a very efficient way to make gifts.
Again, not everyone is able to do this kind of tax planning. And what I have chosen to do works for me, but may not be the best option for others. I will begin SS retirement benefits at my age 67 and put off retirement plan distributions until age 70.5. I will have other sources of income that will allow me to let my large retirement account grow tax deferred until I must start taking withdrawals.
Again, taking withdrawals from retirement accounts prior to the time when RMDs kick in can be helpful from a tax-planning point, but also can be for other reasons. I have a client who withdraws money from her IRA (after 59.5 but before 70.5) to make a charitable contribution. She looks at it as even money: withholds no taxes on the withdrawal, and the distribution is offset by the amount of the charitable gift. So that's another option if someone want to use it.
I did speak with both my son's fil (who does taxes for clients as a quasi-CPA) and my trust attorney, and the general takeaways from them would not be new to most here and some are touched on above:
- as you get older converting to Roth is almost never worth it, when you simply run the numbers
- delaying SS alap is a high goal always
- usually, or at least often, it proves better to do tax-deferred first, letting tax-exempt grow, and in fact both guys suggested in my situation to take more than the RMD, also earlier than the very latest point, and just pay the tax.
This year is required SS for me, so next spring's taxes may be jarring.
As I say, not much news. And it is not as though the SS and RMD taxes can be avoided.