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Yes, I was around back then. The market peaked in August, sort of meandered around until the week before the crash (which came on a Monday). The three days before the crash saw brutal losses. I don't know if you'd call that a trend or not, but people were definitely worried on Louis Ruckeyser on the Friday before the crash (there was a famous prediction that night). I lost around 40% of my money in a week. Good lesson for me.>> The markets were already in established downtrends before that time.
Not so much, at least 1987 not at all. Look at SP500 and FCNTX. For 7y ago, yes, this week right now was the very week of turn. Not much of a trend prior, spring 08.
I see zero reason to think we are in for a nasty bear absent some external shock. From what I read, not in the lay or popular press but internal Goldman memoranda and thinktank economists and the like, some already cited here, the worst you can say is that things are on the pricy side, that's all. Not an original thought, but not very apocalyptic. I did like Tillinghast talking about our bad selves. But some sudden plunge soon, don't believe there is reason.
David, before the Monday crash on October 19, 1987, the Dow was already down some 17% from its August highs. Same with October 2008, entering that month the Dow was already down some 17% YTD. I would say a 17% decline is a pretty established downtrend or what am I missing here.
David, before the Monday crash on October 19, 1987, the Dow was already down some 17% from its August highs. Same with October 2008, entering that month the Dow was already down some 17% YTD. I would say a 17% decline is a pretty established downtrend or what am I missing here.>> The markets were already in established downtrends before that time.
Not so much, at least 1987 not at all. Look at SP500 and FCNTX. For 7y ago, yes, this week right now was the very week of turn. Not much of a trend prior, spring 08.
I see zero reason to think we are in for a nasty bear absent some external shock. From what I read, not in the lay or popular press but internal Goldman memoranda and thinktank economists and the like, some already cited here, the worst you can say is that things are on the pricy side, that's all. Not an original thought, but not very apocalyptic. I did like Tillinghast talking about our bad selves. But some sudden plunge soon, don't believe there is reason.
With apologies to OJ, Jerry and the others, Ted was the first to note that David's June Commentary was posted. I'm afraid my initial tongue-in-cheek remark may have been inappropriate or misinterpreted. It was intended to induce others to read this excellent commentary.
I'm a bit surprised at the seeming surprise David's cautionary market outlook seems to have generated. Regular readers of his monthly commentaries know that he has long voiced skepticism (I think well founded) ) about the durability of the bull market and valuations in general. If you also read Ed Studzinski's regular comments, he makes David look like a lotus eating optimist. (As most here know, Ed co-managed the Oakmark Equity and Income Fund for many years, turning out impressive results.)
I don't think MFO participants have been completely "in the dark" on the valuation issue or to the fact that stock markets can and sometimes do drop precipitously (25+% overnight) or flounder for incredibly long periods, as measured in years or decades. That's the risk you take for being in equities. If you read JohnChism's thread about "Bullish or Bearish" you'll find some of the same concerns David has recently raised - though certainly not as thoroughly explored or eloquently stated as only David can do.
To refresh readers' memories, I've clipped a few morsels from some of David's Commentaries dating back to November, 2013. Please read the commentaries in full, as they are easily retrievable on the MFO website. Apologies to David if, in pulling these out of context, I altered the meaning, omitted pertinent context, or changed the emphasis of any. There was no intent to do so.
Regards
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November 1, 2013: "... a market that tacks on 29% in a year makes it easy to think of investing as fun and funny again. Now if only that popular sentiment could be reconciled with the fact that a bunch of very disciplined, very successful managers are quietly selling down their stocks and building their cash reserves again."
December 1, 2013: "Small investors and great institutions alike are partaking in one of the market’s perennial ceremonies: placing your investments atop an ever-taller pile of dried kindling and split logs. All of the folks who hated stocks when they were cheap are desperate to buy them now that they’re expensive...We have one word for you: Don’t."
January 1, 2014: If you’re looking for a shortcut to finding absolute value investors today, it’s a safe bet you’ll find them atop the “%age portfolio (invested in) cash” list ...They are, in short, the guys you’re now railing against"
February 1, 2014: "It makes you wonder how ready we are for the inevitable sharp correction that many are predicting and few are expecting."
March 1, 2014: "It’s not a question of whether it’s coming. It’s just a question of whether you’ve been preparing intelligently."
April 1, 2014: "Some (money managers) ... are calling the alarm; others stoically endure that leaden feeling in the pit of their stomachs that comes from knowing they’ve seen this show before and it never ends well."
June 1, 2014: ... all of this risk-chasing means that it’s Time to Worry About Stock Market Bubbles."
September 1, 2014: "Somewhere in the background, Putin threatens war, the market threatens a swoon, horrible diseases spread, politicians debate who among them is the most dysfunctional ..."
February 1, 2015: "The good folks at Leuthold foresee a market decline of 30%, likely some time in 2015 or 2016 and likely sooner rather than later. Professor Studzinski suspects that they’re starry-eyed optimists."
April 1, 2015: "(Sooner) ... Or later. That is, the stock market is going to crash. I don’t really know when. Okay, fine: I haven’t got an earthly clue. Then again, neither does anyone else."
May 1, 2015: "For investors too summer holds promise, for days away and for markets unhinged. Perhaps thinking a bit ahead while the hinges remain intact might be a prudent course ..."
Don't bear markets usually start either when the economy peaks and begins to tip into recession, or when interest rates rise either sharply or extensively? A 10% correction or so can happen any time, but a full-fledged bear market? I don't see it. And these hedge fund guys David cites haven't been great market-timers on average, many of them have been calling for hyperinflation for years now.
FWIW, Warren Buffett's equity allocation has been creeping higher: http://charlessizemore.com/warren-buffetts-asset-allocation/
And here's Jeffrey Saut, who I've found pretty good over the last 8-9 years, also calling for this bull to continue a while longer:
http://www.raymondjames.com/inv_strat.htm
That said, I do have more cash (about 10% vs my normal 5%) than I usually do, but obviously that's not much and I'll get hammered if the market indeed crashes.
And none of this detracts from my respect and gratitude for David! He may convince me yet.
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