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I think some people use the *M tax adjusted returns feature as a guide, not as the last word on the subject. But it does serve an important purpose and does give investors a general overview of a fund's tax efficiency. The *M guide serves as an important feature to determine returns given tax considerations. Death, taxes and all that. Personally, I do compare tax adjusted returns because they can have a rather large effect on ultimate returns, especially with a high value portfolio such as mine. Having a "stinker" in terms of tax perspective can make a big difference in one's portfolio. Comparing 10-year returns without tax considerations is not an entirely accurate comparison, IMHO. It can become a rather large factor when comparing balanced funds.@willmatt72 I agree that tax considerations are important for funds held in taxable accounts. But I also feel that the "magic number" tax cost (or after-tax return), while offering some insight, is not a particularly refined figure. The best it can do is tell you whether a fund is a stinker from a tax perspective.
Start with the basic fact that different people are in different tax brackets - I would never use a 20% cap gains tax rate, yet that is what is typically used. Quoting from M*'s tax cost ratio methodology: "Per the SEC’s guidance, after-tax returns are calculated with the highest tax rates prevailing at the time of the distribution, as if the investor were in the highest tax bracket."
(This is probably incorrect even for those in the top bracket, as I think it excludes the Medicare surtax of 3.8% on investments, and of course ignores state taxes.)
Then there is the problem that these calculations almost never (except in prospectuses) show the tax effect if one liquidates. That's important because if one is paying taxes on cap gains distributions now, one will pay less in taxes when one liquidates. So while cap gains distributions do have an effect on total returns long term, the effect is not as pronounced as one is led to believe from usual tax cost calculations.
Some of these factors increase the actual tax cost (such as state taxes, surtaxes including Medicare and phaseout of exemptions, etc.), while others decrease the actual tax cost (reduced cap gains on liquidation, not being in the top tax bracket, etc.). It's all very personal - each individual's situation is different.
That's why whatever after tax figures you get are at best crude approximations, and why I either do a much more detailed analysis or use the figures provided only as a filter (don't get a very tax inefficient fund), and not to compare funds.
@shipwreckedandalone: Please share the results of your research when you have finished. I have myself long suspected this is really an equity fund. And having held PRWCX since the mid-'90s, I've always considered it part of my equity allocation. This has caused more than a little consternation and second-guessing as to whether I have it placed correctly. Seems to me various rating sites have classified the fund over the years at various times as equity, moderate allocation, balanced or even hybrid.PRWCX is a great great fund, but possibly an equity fund cloaked as a balanced fund in order to gather assets. I will spend some time researching in that area.
Answer: yes. Will I? No. You can spend your own time. Question is ambiguous in any case. I could expound upon that, but it would be pointless. So I'll just give one broad group of "funds" that have vanished in the past ten years for a reason other than underperformance. It's not clear from your phrasing whether you are asking for them to be included in the count or not.msf, 1. Can you please provide the number of Allocation funds that have closed or merged due to underperformance during those 10 years that VBINX has outperformed?
Interesting claim. Would you care to say what I misrepresented? Did you not conflate classes and funds? Did you not count index funds among actively managed funds? Did you not omit in your figures any "funds" (i.e. share classes) that one could not purchase at Fidelity despite the fact that Fidelity provided figures on the larger (i.e. M*) universe of moderate allocation funds? Did you not overstate the number of ten year "allocation" funds (without defining that term) by nearly a factor of two by including 550 funds that had not existed for ten years?You ignored that number in your misrepresentation of my numbers. Please add those back into your denominator and recalculate.
Absolutely, and I did - VBIAX. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to consider and count each share class separately, then I am free to pick VBIAX as competing "fund". If not, think about going back, fixing your "fund" data, and providing credible figures to discuss.
2. Do you believe you can pick a fund(s) to invest in today that will outperform VBINX over 10 years?
Or due to lack of interest by investors for any other reason as well. Glad to see that you found the same data that I pointed out to you at the Fidelity site.
If VBINX has outperformed 88% over the last 10 years? Morningstar shows a rank of top 12 for 10 year performance for VBINX Moderate Allocation. Also USA Today shows 12. Also both not counting closures due to underperformance.
It's extremely likely, sure. But mathematically certain? No.
I am not asking you if a fund will outperform VBINX over the last/next 10 years. That is a certain.
Your phrasing ("brash") exposes your preconceptions. You start with the assumption that something is virtually impossible (okay, 98.6% impossible), and therefore any suggestion to the contrary must be brash, as opposed to reasoned.
I am asking you are you brash enough to believe that TODAY you could pick a moderate allocation fund that will outperform over the next 10 years?
Yes indeed.
This is the basis for my post.
All funds don't have the same depth of analysts, so no, we should not assume all funds will have the same degree of continuity. You're also disregarding other factors with TRP, both ones I've mentioned and others that are easy enough to discern. One is that TRP ensures a smooth handoff of management, as contrasted with, say Fidelity, where a management change is a warning sign for chaos, portfolio turnover, and changes in fund direction. Another is that when managers leave T. Rowe Price, it is typically to retire. I named the last three fund managers for PRWCX. You could have checked where they went afterward. Arricale stayed with TRP to manage another fund until 2010 when his personal life got really messed up and he was unemployed for sixteen months. Somehow, I doubt analysts followed him down that path. Bosel retired.
3. If analyst depth of T Rowe Price works well relative to performance should we blindly assume all funds will behave as such when the manager leaves? The peanut gallery opinion will be a definite "no" on that one. You assume the analysts will not change employment as well or go with the PM to their new employer..
Any time. Now you can apply that learning to identify the error that I utilized above. The number of 10 year moderate allocation funds in the Fidelity universe is not 322, but just 243. The others don't have ten year records. So the actual percentage of funds (surviving share classes, if you prefer) that beat VBINX was 23/243 ~= 9.5%. And the percentage of non-Fidelity funds beating VBINX was 37/(501 - 243) ~= 14%. Still an improvement over the 9.5% that one would get with Fidelity-sold funds, or the 12% general universe.
Thank you for alerting me to the 550.
I don't know much about the etf - I just looked at its current composition, and it looks like a world allocation fund - 27% foreign stock, 31% US stock (as opposed to a traditional 60/40 domestic allocation fund). If you look at category returns for allocation funds, you find world allocation funds in the cellar, relatively speaking, ahead of only tactical allocation funds over the past three and five years.Why do they outperform AOR? Any thoughts? It's more broadly diversified? Suboptimal bond sectoring?
Interesting analysis. Since VBINX is considered a moderate allocation fund, did you compare it with other moderate allocation for tax-adjusted returns over 10 years? As we all know. taxes can play a large part in determining the ultimate returns. I plugged in a few of the funds compared to VBINX for a 10-year tax adjusted returns and they don't hold up. For example, BERIX, TIBIX and MAPOX were behind VBINX. I didn't even look at your entire list, just popped in a few for analysis. Some investors hold balanced funds in taxable accounts so tax-adjusted returns should be taken into consideration for those who do.VBINX (a simple 60/40 fund) is ranked #16 out of all 1194 Allocation (Balanced) funds based on Fidelity's Mutual Fund research site over the last 10 years. Therefore 98.6% of all the CFA's, MBA's, ChFA and PhD's portfolio managers cannot outperform a simple low cost index. Why do we even spend time discussing the best funds?
Over any 1, 3, 5 or 10 year timeframe compared to only Moderate Allocation OR all Allocation funds, VBINX is better than 89.5% of any actively managed fund. Amazing. The really great managers are rare.
It is not clear how you arrived at these precise numbers. Here's Fidelity's fund screener forall the allocation funds (i.e. all share classes) it carries. I get 1,870 funds. But if I sort on 10 year returns (so that all the share classes that haven't been around drop to the bottom), I get "just" 865. And that includes multiple share classes per fund.
My best guess is that you may have used Fidelity's screener to pick all subcategories of Allocation funds with "Allocation" in their name: Conservative, Aggressive, Moderate, Tactical, and World. If one does this and excludes funds that are closed at Fidelity (the screener's default - good for shopping but less so for research), that results in 1195 share classes. Close enough since these figures can shift on a daily basis.
In this cohort, VBINX isn't even Vanguard's best fund, based on 10 year performance. That goes to Wellesley VWINX. (Actually the top two Vanguard share classes would both be Wellesley, except that Fidelity doesn't sell VWIAX).
Note that I haven't disagreed with your thesis, but with your numbers. From a scientific method perspective they are suspect because they're not easily reproducible. Also, extreme figures invite inspection, and a small deviation can cast doubt up the greater thesis, rightly or wrongly.
Had you suggested that 80% or so of actively managed allocation funds did not do as well over ten years, I likely wouldn't have even looked at the data. Fidelity's own page on VBINX says that over 10 years, it beat 88% of 500 other (501 total) moderate allocation funds. Which means that over 10 years, there were about 60 moderate allocation funds (let alone other types of allocation funds) that beat VBINX. Four times as many as the fifteen implied by a #16 ranking for VBINX.
Just so we don't confuse funds and share classes, out of those 1195 funds I could coax out of Fidelity's screener, the funds (not share classes) ranking above VBINX include:
(1) Columbia Balanced (CBLAX and CBCLX), (2) John Hancock Balanced (SVBIX),
(3) Wellesley (VWINX), (4) Janus Balanced (JABAX),
(5) AMG Chicago Equity Partners Balanced (MBESX and MBEAX)),
(6) Loomis Sayles Global E&I (LSWWX and LGMAX), (7) Berwyn Income (BERIX),
(8) Boston Trust Asset Mgmt (BTBFX), (9) First Eagle Global (SGIIX and SGENX),
(10) Intrepid Capital (ICMVX and ICMBX), (11) LKCM Balanced (LKBAX), (12) Ivy Balanced (IBNAX),
(13) Wells Fargo Index Asset Allocation (WFAIX and SFAAX), (14) Mairs & Power Balanced (MPAOX),
(15) Transamerica Multi-Managed Balanced (TBLIX and IBALX),
(16) American Funds American Balanced (ABALX), (17) Tributary Balanced (FBOPX & FOBAX),
(18) Hennesy E&I (HEIFX), (19) Westwood Inc. Opp (WHGIX and WWIAX),
(20) Thornburg Investment Inc. (TIBIX), (21) Puritan (FPURX), (22) FPA Crescent (FPACX),
(23) Eaton Vance Balanced (EIIFX), (24) Oakmark E&I (OAKBX), and (25) Ivy Asset Strategy (WASAX).
T. Rowe Price Cap Ap (PRWCX and PACLX) would be at the top of the list, except that it is a closed fund, and I had to exclude closed funds to come close to your 1194 fund count. Likewise, Vanguard's other "vanilla" actively managed allocation fund - Wellington - would have come out ahead of VBINX also, except that Fidelity thinks it is a closed fund. (It's not, but you can't open a new position at Fidelity.)
If we throw out the four world allocation funds (Loomis Sayles Global, First Eagle Global, Thornburg Investment Income, and Ivy Asset Strategy), we're still left with 21 distinct funds, let alone share classes outperforming VBINX over ten years. Well more than 15 funds, and all the remaining funds are conservative, moderate, or aggressive allocation funds - no offbeat stuff like convertibles.
If I had a better idea of how you're getting your figures (or to put it another way, what factors you're looking at), it would be easier to discuss. You started with a Vanguard (marketed) fund, so one could easily ask: at Vanguard, why even look at Vanguard-managed funds (VBINX, VGSTX), when the Wellington-managed funds (Wellesley, Wellington) have done better?
It is not clear how you arrived at these precise numbers. Here's Fidelity's fund screener for all the allocation funds (i.e. all share classes) it carries. I get 1,870 funds. But if I sort on 10 year returns (so that all the share classes that haven't been around drop to the bottom), I get "just" 865. And that includes multiple share classes per fund.VBINX (a simple 60/40 fund) is ranked #16 out of all 1194 Allocation (Balanced) funds based on Fidelity's Mutual Fund research site over the last 10 years. Therefore 98.6% of all the CFA's, MBA's, ChFA and PhD's portfolio managers cannot outperform a simple low cost index. Why do we even spend time discussing the best funds?
Over any 1, 3, 5 or 10 year timeframe compared to only Moderate Allocation OR all Allocation funds, VBINX is better than 89.5% of any actively managed fund. Amazing. The really great managers are rare.
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