Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
I see no humor and no merit in this comparative table that contrasts Socialism against Capitalism.
It is not subtle, not funny, not satirical, not meaningful today or any other day, especially not on yesterday’s sad event. It is very representative of The Onion’s often failed attempt at satire and cynicism. The number one word in their dictionary seems to be “asshole”. That word is very descriptive of their work ethic and final outputs. The Onion is just plain crude, off-target stuff.
The purpose for posting this piece totally escapes me.
The referenced Table is so distorted and so dishonest that clumsiness and ineptness best characterizes it. I suppose perhaps 1% of our population really believes this hammy, incompetent stuff. Shame on them for their ignorance.
For example, the description in the Underlying Philosophy category given under the Socialism banner is much more appropriately positioned under the Capitalism banner.
For example, in the Does It Work category, The Onion rates both economic systems as “In Theory”. That’s complete nonsense. Socialism has been fairly tested and mostly fails; Capitalism has been fairly tested and mostly succeeds. Practical local and national scale test applications are all over the world map.
This is not “the great debate”. It is a settled debate. It was settled decades ago in the USA with the failure of Robert Owen’s New Harmony experiment in 1825 Indiana. It was settled more recently on an international scale with the failures of the Russian and Chinese versions of their great socialism experiments. There are some limited successes that are dependent on small scale and extremely special circumstances.
Capitalism rewards success, promotes free markets, protects private property ownership, and limits government interventions. Socialism punishes success, rewards laziness, encourages a large welfare system, and promotes a large, invasive government. In the USA, only Bernie Sanders and his small cohort of supporters choose Socialism.
I concede that The Onion has it precisely right when characterizing Socialism human behavior as being “naïve”. Even an idiot is right sometimes.
Thank you for reading my post. I’m sure many MFOers agree with my opinion; I’m equally sure that a few disagree and I invite your comments.
>> ... a settled debate. It was settled decades ago in the USA ... in 1825 Indiana. >> I’m sure many MFOers agree with my opinion; ....
This is wonderful. You are Onion-level funny.
And that's a little tragic. I want to read all posts but the length of some replies makes it hard and now I will never know whether THAT was funny or not.
@Prolix First, lighten up. It's a joke and it is funny. Second, there's a lot of "'isms" being thrown around without much sense as to their meanings. Some form of socialism and capitalism exists in almost every modern state. It's a spectrum or scale. On the most basic level socialism means public ownership and distribution of resources. Those resources could include things like waterways, public parks, the military, schools, roads, courts, etc. There are many things the public sector does better than the private sector and vice versa. I would hate to be tried in a privatized court system where justice went to the highest bidder! Socialistic programs can also include more aggressive distribution of those resources such as welfare, unemployment insurance, Food Stamps, Social security, etc, and those programs can exist in a capitalist state.
Post-revolution Russia and China were not originally considered socialist states but communist states. That's public ownership of everything, not some things like in most other countries. They in actuality, by a strict Marxist definition, were not even communist states. They were and are largely still totalitarian states. Marxism/communism as a political state has never existed in this world. Having an elite group of politicians or apparatchiks own and control everything was not what Marx envisioned at all. Nor was it some hippie commune. As China proves today, though, faux capitalism can function as well under a totalitarian regime as faux communism can. And Russia even at the height of the Cold War always had a thriving black market for goods that was quite capitalistic. It's a spectrum--a comical rainbow if you will--between public and private ownership.
I am gonna see if the Onion wants to run as humor such wannabe-serious discussion about their sophisticated wit. We need to post this to the great site literallyunbelievable.org.
I thought it was funny. Thank you David. It was a terrible day for the civilized world.
MJG, you're just from another planet. One where every thing is black and white. One where the only thing that maters is that everything must be precisely correct. One where a little satirical humor confuses your abilities to think.
Just IMHO... remember your diatribe on that phrase?
Wow...and I thought it was just a silly article! I better go back and re-read it.........nope, still just a silly article. I hope we don't lose our sense(s) of humor in our country...lest we become like those nitwits that carried out the Charlie Hebdo attacks....killing people over CARTOONS!!! And I defy you to find a bigger capitalist than me!
I would hate to be tried in a privatized court system where justice went to the highest bidder!
I agree with most everything you wrote...except for the above. Seems like the wealthy/well-connected have a big advantage here...OJ Simpson comes to mind, but there are others, as well. Sorry...I'm in no mood to reference articles today. Maybe someone else can weigh in?
@littlw The fact that our public courts can be corrupted by private interests is not an indication we should have a privatized system. I wouldn't want to compete in the free market court of EBay in which a desired verdict automatically went to the highest bidder. I prefer a jury of my peers and an impartial non-company appointed judge. In a sense we already have a separate privatized justice system. It's called arbitration and it's terrible. Also, private interests have rigged our courts by giving massive campaign contributions to judges that favor their interests. Again, this is not an indication that we need more of the private sector in our public court system. To the contrary, we need less.
@littlw The fact that our public courts can be corrupted by private interests is not an indication we should have a privatized system. I wouldn't want to compete in the free market court of EBay in which a desired verdict automatically went to the highest bidder. I prefer a jury of my peers and an impartial non-company appointed judge. In a sense we already have a separate privatized justice system. It's called arbitration and it's terrible. Also, private interests have rigged our courts by giving massive campaign contributions to judges that favor their interests. Again, this is not an indication that we need more of the private sector in our public court system. To the contrary, we need less.
Hear, Hear. Government may be broken but that does not mean we have people like Koch brothers run the country. I'm all for privatization but then we should not have such a concentration of power and assets. I'm sorry, but I do not believe in the "goodness" of these people on which the concept of "trickle down economics" is based. Fact of the matter, is we have a history of privatization capitalizing profits and socializing losses.
Anyone who hasn't read "All The President's Bankers", I highly recommend it.
@LewisBraham I'm not disagreeing with you...just stating that the wealthy/well-connected have an advantage in our justice system. And if you want to drag the Koch brothers into the discussion, be sure to drag George Soros and trial lawyers in, as well. So tired of special interest groups...on both sides!
Thank you for replying to my submittal. I invited as much and I appreciate your fine effort. I truly welcome a diversity of interpretations and opinions.
Certainly, you and everyone else are free to express an opinion on the Onion economic systems comparison table. It’s too bad that the chart was not accompanied by some text. Context matters. I’m sure you agree that I too am free to express an opinion of my own, even if it runs counter to yours.
I concur with your succinct statements that “Some form of socialism and capitalism exists in almost every modern state. It's a spectrum or scale.” There is never an absolutely pure form of either Socialism or Capitalism. It is always a mixed bag. The issue is how mixed and its directional movements.
I was disappointed that you did not comment directly to me by name. Gratuitous name calling should not be in the toolbox of a professional writer. That’s a weak subterfuge. It was never in my proposals when I competed for contracts against some inventive competition. Name calling is a last line of defense because it usually means the caller is on the loser’s side of the argument.
And in this instance it’s a little like “the pot calling the kettle black”. Brevity is surely not one of my strong writing attributes: neither is it yours. You’re as prone to be prolix as I am. I fault neither of us in that regard; it is merely a matter of style, and not substance.
Let’s examine your reply and my initial comments using the Gunning Fog Index methodology.
You used 272 words in rebuttal. Forty-five of those words had 3 plus syllables. The Gunning Fog Index rated your post at 12.06, like an equivalent high school educational level.
I used 364 words to present my assessment. Seventy-one of those words had 3 plus syllables. The Gunning Fog Index rated my post at 12.66 , like a partial equivalent first-year college student.
Not very much separates these submittals in terms of their complexity. My post is one-third longer with a slightly higher percentage of 3 plus syllable words (16.5% vs. 19.5%). My Fog Index number suggests a modestly higher readership educational level requirement for easy understanding.
I doubt these differences seriously trouble any MFOer. I try to make my positions crystal clear. I expect many will disagree with those positions. I hope we all benefit from any divergences in those positions, especially if they are documented in an organized, civilized, and respectful manner.
Sorry for my delay in responding. It was a terrific tennis day in Southern California. That’s the norm and not an exception here.
Glad you enjoyed tennis. A terrific bicycling day in northern Michigan. 53 degrees in mid-November is almost unheard of. Snowblower's going to rust-out if it doesn't get some use soon.
Very saddened and concerned about the world events DavidM and others have alluded to. I once thought Shakespeare had covered all the possible depravities of the human condition. But suspect even he would have trouble putting these events into any logical perspective.
Thank you for your atta-boy post. I suspect you enjoyed your Michigan bicycle tour more than I enjoyed my tennis match. I absorbed a royal drubbing. But it’s not all about winning; it was still fun.
A few years ago, a worker in Alaska told my wife, who was attempting to duck the rain, that "we don't wear-out, we rust out". We don't have that problem in Southern California. We wear-out.
Indeed, it was a sad day in Paris. But it will be a sadder day for terrorist in the near future. These terrorist completely underestimate the heightened resolve of the French people. They will not be intimidated. Recovery may take some time among the general population, but recover they will. The French government will respond immediately.
The French air force has already escaladed their air attacks. In short order, they will intensify those attacks. I assume the USA will provide support and will also increase our air raids.
Currently, we are only executing a single digit number of sorties per day. We have the capability to increase that slow drizzle into a thunderstorm increase by two orders of magnitude. I suspect that will happen soon.
“Lafayette, we are here”. Those words of gratitude were first delivered in World War I, not by General Black Jack Pershing, but by a Colonel Charles Stanton. Those sentiments were appropriate then; they are appropriate now.
Those words have been repeated in the past. They will again be honored.
Remember everyone, the Onion articles are for humor purpose and should only be taken lightly. Unlike the brave leader of North Korea who thought he was the sexist men alive as suggested by the Onion.
the modern world, comedy needing to be embraced by politicians of all stripes to advance their causes
Hence a parade of politicians on SNL - a program generally defined as comedy.
Point being ... dismissing a venue like Steven Colbert, SNL or The Onion as "comedy" does not absolve one from answering criticism of the underlying political message and entertaining (no pun intended) supplementary or contrary opinions and evidence.
I think that's all MJG was suggesting - some balance in respect to the message The Onion is presenting. But rail on if you must. (Talk about shouting to the wind.)
I think if you gave US citizens the choice between now and socialism, they would choose socialism and possibly communism if that was one of the choices.
I think if you gave US citizens the choice between now and socialism, they would choose socialism and possibly communism if that was one of the choices.
That's understandable. True socialism is better than what we have today. Objectivism + Capitalizing Profits + Sociailizing Losses. The problem with Socialism is allegedly the lack of motivation to innovate. Capitalism would fix that except, "greed is good" messes things up.
Comments
I see no humor and no merit in this comparative table that contrasts Socialism against Capitalism.
It is not subtle, not funny, not satirical, not meaningful today or any other day, especially not on yesterday’s sad event. It is very representative of The Onion’s often failed attempt at satire and cynicism. The number one word in their dictionary seems to be “asshole”. That word is very descriptive of their work ethic and final outputs. The Onion is just plain crude, off-target stuff.
The purpose for posting this piece totally escapes me.
The referenced Table is so distorted and so dishonest that clumsiness and ineptness best characterizes it. I suppose perhaps 1% of our population really believes this hammy, incompetent stuff. Shame on them for their ignorance.
For example, the description in the Underlying Philosophy category given under the Socialism banner is much more appropriately positioned under the Capitalism banner.
For example, in the Does It Work category, The Onion rates both economic systems as “In Theory”. That’s complete nonsense. Socialism has been fairly tested and mostly fails; Capitalism has been fairly tested and mostly succeeds. Practical local and national scale test applications are all over the world map.
This is not “the great debate”. It is a settled debate. It was settled decades ago in the USA with the failure of Robert Owen’s New Harmony experiment in 1825 Indiana. It was settled more recently on an international scale with the failures of the Russian and Chinese versions of their great socialism experiments. There are some limited successes that are dependent on small scale and extremely special circumstances.
Capitalism rewards success, promotes free markets, protects private property ownership, and limits government interventions. Socialism punishes success, rewards laziness, encourages a large welfare system, and promotes a large, invasive government. In the USA, only Bernie Sanders and his small cohort of supporters choose Socialism.
I concede that The Onion has it precisely right when characterizing Socialism human behavior as being “naïve”. Even an idiot is right sometimes.
Thank you for reading my post. I’m sure many MFOers agree with my opinion; I’m equally sure that a few disagree and I invite your comments.
Best Regards.
>> I’m sure many MFOers agree with my opinion; ....
This is wonderful. You are Onion-level funny.
Post-revolution Russia and China were not originally considered socialist states but communist states. That's public ownership of everything, not some things like in most other countries. They in actuality, by a strict Marxist definition, were not even communist states. They were and are largely still totalitarian states. Marxism/communism as a political state has never existed in this world. Having an elite group of politicians or apparatchiks own and control everything was not what Marx envisioned at all. Nor was it some hippie commune. As China proves today, though, faux capitalism can function as well under a totalitarian regime as faux communism can. And Russia even at the height of the Cold War always had a thriving black market for goods that was quite capitalistic. It's a spectrum--a comical rainbow if you will--between public and private ownership.
But decided it wasn't worth it.
MJG, you're just from another planet. One where every thing is black and white. One where the only thing that maters is that everything must be precisely correct. One where a little satirical humor confuses your abilities to think.
Just IMHO... remember your diatribe on that phrase?
Anyone who hasn't read "All The President's Bankers", I highly recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/All-Presidents-Bankers-Alliances-American/dp/1568584792/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447598488&sr=8-1&keywords=All+the+President's+bankers
And don't forget to use the MFO Amazon link.
Thank you for replying to my submittal. I invited as much and I appreciate your fine effort. I truly welcome a diversity of interpretations and opinions.
Certainly, you and everyone else are free to express an opinion on the Onion economic systems comparison table. It’s too bad that the chart was not accompanied by some text. Context matters. I’m sure you agree that I too am free to express an opinion of my own, even if it runs counter to yours.
I concur with your succinct statements that “Some form of socialism and capitalism exists in almost every modern state. It's a spectrum or scale.” There is never an absolutely pure form of either Socialism or Capitalism. It is always a mixed bag. The issue is how mixed and its directional movements.
I was disappointed that you did not comment directly to me by name. Gratuitous name calling should not be in the toolbox of a professional writer. That’s a weak subterfuge. It was never in my proposals when I competed for contracts against some inventive competition. Name calling is a last line of defense because it usually means the caller is on the loser’s side of the argument.
And in this instance it’s a little like “the pot calling the kettle black”. Brevity is surely not one of my strong writing attributes: neither is it yours. You’re as prone to be prolix as I am. I fault neither of us in that regard; it is merely a matter of style, and not substance.
Let’s examine your reply and my initial comments using the Gunning Fog Index methodology.
You used 272 words in rebuttal. Forty-five of those words had 3 plus syllables. The Gunning Fog Index rated your post at 12.06, like an equivalent high school educational level.
I used 364 words to present my assessment. Seventy-one of those words had 3 plus syllables. The Gunning Fog Index rated my post at 12.66 , like a partial equivalent first-year college student.
Not very much separates these submittals in terms of their complexity. My post is one-third longer with a slightly higher percentage of 3 plus syllable words (16.5% vs. 19.5%). My Fog Index number suggests a modestly higher readership educational level requirement for easy understanding.
I doubt these differences seriously trouble any MFOer. I try to make my positions crystal clear. I expect many will disagree with those positions. I hope we all benefit from any divergences in those positions, especially if they are documented in an organized, civilized, and respectful manner.
Sorry for my delay in responding. It was a terrific tennis day in Southern California. That’s the norm and not an exception here.
Best Wishes.
Glad you enjoyed tennis. A terrific bicycling day in northern Michigan. 53 degrees in mid-November is almost unheard of. Snowblower's going to rust-out if it doesn't get some use soon.
Very saddened and concerned about the world events DavidM and others have alluded to. I once thought Shakespeare had covered all the possible depravities of the human condition. But suspect even he would have trouble putting these events into any logical perspective.
Regards
Thank you for your atta-boy post. I suspect you enjoyed your Michigan bicycle tour more than I enjoyed my tennis match. I absorbed a royal drubbing. But it’s not all about winning; it was still fun.
A few years ago, a worker in Alaska told my wife, who was attempting to duck the rain, that "we don't wear-out, we rust out". We don't have that problem in Southern California. We wear-out.
Indeed, it was a sad day in Paris. But it will be a sadder day for terrorist in the near future. These terrorist completely underestimate the heightened resolve of the French people. They will not be intimidated. Recovery may take some time among the general population, but recover they will. The French government will respond immediately.
The French air force has already escaladed their air attacks. In short order, they will intensify those attacks. I assume the USA will provide support and will also increase our air raids.
Currently, we are only executing a single digit number of sorties per day. We have the capability to increase that slow drizzle into a thunderstorm increase by two orders of magnitude. I suspect that will happen soon.
“Lafayette, we are here”. Those words of gratitude were first delivered in World War I, not by General Black Jack Pershing, but by a Colonel Charles Stanton. Those sentiments were appropriate then; they are appropriate now.
Those words have been repeated in the past. They will again be honored.
Best Wishes.
I am so going to post more Onion stuff, just to get such sober and clueless response. This has been a major hoot in a grim batch of days.
http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/126423267173/this-is-why-we-need-less-government
the modern world, comedy needing to be embraced by politicians of all stripes to advance their causes
Hence a parade of politicians on SNL - a program generally defined as comedy.
Point being ... dismissing a venue like Steven Colbert, SNL or The Onion as "comedy" does not absolve one from answering criticism of the underlying political message and entertaining (no pun intended) supplementary or contrary opinions and evidence.
I think that's all MJG was suggesting - some balance in respect to the message The Onion
is presenting. But rail on if you must. (Talk about shouting to the wind.)
Don't think you know what railing means; it is all that MJG does.
Whatever. This just gets more comical.
Please do....much better than the insanity I'm watching on the news. I have dear American friends living in Brussels right now....so scared for them.
But be fair when you post....both sides need to laugh
Hope all in Brussels stay safe. I imagine everyone is pretty anxious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/socialist-president-poll_n_7638400.html
Americans ages 18 to 29 are most open to the idea of a socialist with nearly 7 in 10 stating they'd vote for one. Older generations are less inclined to do so.