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@VintageFreak Hey, I thought you forgot about me! My grandparents were Polish immigrants, but I still have family over there. They suffered greatly under that system, so I just took two comments a bit personally..."True Socialism is better than what we have today"...and..."The problem with Socialism is allegedly the lack of motivation to innovate." I think Socialism basically kills motivation, period. True, our system has its flaws, but even so, I prefer it to any alternative.
And I don't believe for a second that people have called you worse...you are always good-natured, even when you disagree
No worries man. Neither my parents or I ever made it back to Europe. Not even vacation. "Capitalism" is the only system we know. Double Quotes around the word is my admission, I don't know what it means anymore. Still trying to figure it out. I do have a PhD in Objectivism, as you might have guessed
As I said above, capitalism and socialism exist on a spectrum and are not really binary either/or systems. So the idea that socialism "kills motivation" is quite frankly bunk. In fact, you could just as easily say capitalism kills certain kinds of motivation too. I remember reading a study years ago about the best countries to start your own business and the U.S. lagged behind a number of other countries like Canada because of the lack of affordable government paid for healthcare. People in the U.S. were afraid to leave their jobs to start a business because they didn't want to lose their healthcare benefits and risk putting their kids in jeopardy. In countries with centralized "socialized" medicine where every citizen is guaranteed to have healthcare you needn't worry so much about getting sick. That actually encourages entrepreneurialism.
"As I said above, capitalism and socialism exist on a spectrum and are not really binary either/or systems. So the idea that socialism "kills motivation" is quite frankly bunk. In fact, you could just as easily say capitalism kills certain kinds of motivation too."
OK, good point with respect to "a spectrum and are not really binary either/or systems". But I believe that if socialism is carried to the extreme that it was in the former Soviet Union, for example, that personal motivation does indeed take a major hit.
@Old Joe Extremes of any ideology tend not to work well. This is why many Democrats miss those old school Republicans who were willing to negotiate on the issues instead of these new Tea Party ones who seem to want to burn anything with the word "government" in its name to the ground. That said, I don't really see Russia as an extreme of socialism but as a failed corrupt totalitarian state in which the government became an end to itself and not representative of the people it governs. I would say Sweden, France and Germany are better examples of countries that are more towards the socialist end of the spectrum, but they of course have capitalist dimensions too--as did Russia even during the Cold War.
"Sweden, France and Germany are better examples of countries that are more towards the socialist end of the spectrum"
I'll certainly agree that we felt quite at home in all of those countries, but there certainly didn't seem to be a noticeable lack of either Capitalism or personal motivation.
@LewisBraham Not disagreeing that there are degrees of socialism...the type my relatives experienced was very different than the type I experienced when I lived in Germany in the 80's. Like I said to VF, because of my background, I took two statements he made a tad personally...just like you interpreted MJG's comments to you about Pittsburgh (not to re-open THAT discussion ). VF graciously accepted my explanation.
I think you also implied I am a Tea Party Republican? Sorry, but you are wrong there, as well. @Old_Joe and I had a very nice private chat during one of our prior political disagreements and discovered our views are quite similar, so if I am a Tea Partier, I guess that means you are, too, @Old_Joe!
Not to keep stirring the pot, but where would you place Greece on the spectrum?
Many of us are addicted to ranking lists. I count myself in that cohort.
For a long time I have eagerly anticipated the Forbes annual ranking of their Best Countries for Business list. Here is a Link to their research that was published in December, 2014:
The USA is positioned in the number 18 slot. The relative positioning has slipped in recent years. According to the Forbes’ article: “It marks the fifth straight year of declines since 2009, when the U.S. ranked second. Blame an expanded government, as well as expensive new regulations in finance and health care.” This downward trend is not healthy.
But the Forbes’ rankings are for business in general. The U.S. growth is closely correlated with the growth of small businesses. A better signal of our relative national growth would be coupled to a more nuanced ranking of only small business trends. Here is a Link to a Business Insider listing that focuses on starting a business:
These rankings are totally dependent on the criteria deployed. You can get added info about the methodology by clicking on the Link (Distance to Frontier) provided within the document. It did change for the 2015 ratings.
The U.S. ranks in 7th place by this scoring method. It was unchanged from last year, but is lower than its 5th place positioning 5 years ago. The unhealthy downward trend that Forbes’ reported is repeated here in the small business category.
I hope you visit and enjoy these references. Statistical data always helps to inform an opinion, but of course, how you interpret these data is up to you.
As I said in a much earlier post: “There is never an absolutely pure form of either Socialism or Capitalism. It is always a mixed bag. The issue is how mixed and its directional movements.” Over the last decade in the U.S., that directional movement has been in the Socialism direction.
The factors that influence our economic wellbeing are complex and highly interactive. Isolating causes and effects is a daunting challenge. Is it likely that the Socialism trend-line being registered in the U.S. a contributing factor to our diminishing world best business climate status?
>> Is it likely that the Socialism trend-line being registered in the U.S. a contributing factor to our diminishing world best business climate status?
Oh, without question, without question. It is all Obama.
>> Blame an expanded government, as well as expensive new regulations in finance and health care. The U.S. is the only country to record a loss of economic freedom seven straight years in the Heritage Foundation’s Index of Economic Freedom. More than 130 major new federal regulations on starting a business have been added since 2009 at an annual cost of $60 billion, according to the Heritage Foundation.
Ditto. It is all big gov. Heritage has the answers. It only we could get rid of Obama socialism. "Loss of freedom," those expensive new regs. We need the good old days before those expensive new regs. Back when finance and healthcare were less-regulated. $60B --- the evil cripplingness of government. Let us return to the days of yesteryear.
@little5bee, I never said you were a Tea Party member. I am specifically talking about members of Congress who would rather shut the government down than compromise on anything.
That settles it...I feel sooo much better now about Obamacare. I'm going to run right out and start another business...as soon as I get the $2500/year savings Obama said I would get on my healthcare
@little5bee, You're right. A completely socialized government-run healthcare system like Sweden, France and Germany would be far cheaper and more efficient than overpriced Obamacare is. The compromises the Obama administration had to make with the private for profit pharmaceutical, hospital and insurance industry to get the legislation passed have led to high costs. If only we had a little more socialized medicine and things would be much cheaper.
@LewisBraham At this point, it's probably worth a try, but some of the options in the other thread that Ted posted would help, as well. I think incentivizing people to eat healthy, exercise, stop smoking, etc., would be great...people like me feel like we're being punished under Obamacare. Still wouldn't motivate me to start a business, however, quite the opposite...much easier to ride in the cart than help push. At any rate, it would be nice if our lawmakers would actually read any new law before they passed it! BTW, where is Greece on the spectrum?
Comments
Cheers.
OK, good point with respect to "a spectrum and are not really binary either/or systems". But I believe that if socialism is carried to the extreme that it was in the former Soviet Union, for example, that personal motivation does indeed take a major hit.
I'll certainly agree that we felt quite at home in all of those countries, but there certainly didn't seem to be a noticeable lack of either Capitalism or personal motivation.
I think you also implied I am a Tea Party Republican? Sorry, but you are wrong there, as well. @Old_Joe and I had a very nice private chat during one of our prior political disagreements and discovered our views are quite similar, so if I am a Tea Partier, I guess that means you are, too, @Old_Joe!
Not to keep stirring the pot, but where would you place Greece on the spectrum?
HEY!!
Many of us are addicted to ranking lists. I count myself in that cohort.
For a long time I have eagerly anticipated the Forbes annual ranking of their Best Countries for Business list. Here is a Link to their research that was published in December, 2014:
http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/
The USA is positioned in the number 18 slot. The relative positioning has slipped in recent years. According to the Forbes’ article: “It marks the fifth straight year of declines since 2009, when the U.S. ranked second. Blame an expanded government, as well as expensive new regulations in finance and health care.” This downward trend is not healthy.
But the Forbes’ rankings are for business in general. The U.S. growth is closely correlated with the growth of small businesses. A better signal of our relative national growth would be coupled to a more nuanced ranking of only small business trends. Here is a Link to a Business Insider listing that focuses on starting a business:
http://www.businessinsider.com/world-bank-doing-business-2016-top-country-rankings-2015-10
These rankings are totally dependent on the criteria deployed. You can get added info about the methodology by clicking on the Link (Distance to Frontier) provided within the document. It did change for the 2015 ratings.
The U.S. ranks in 7th place by this scoring method. It was unchanged from last year, but is lower than its 5th place positioning 5 years ago. The unhealthy downward trend that Forbes’ reported is repeated here in the small business category.
I hope you visit and enjoy these references. Statistical data always helps to inform an opinion, but of course, how you interpret these data is up to you.
As I said in a much earlier post: “There is never an absolutely pure form of either Socialism or Capitalism. It is always a mixed bag. The issue is how mixed and its directional movements.” Over the last decade in the U.S., that directional movement has been in the Socialism direction.
The factors that influence our economic wellbeing are complex and highly interactive. Isolating causes and effects is a daunting challenge. Is it likely that the Socialism trend-line being registered in the U.S. a contributing factor to our diminishing world best business climate status?
Best Wishes.
Oh, without question, without question. It is all Obama.
>> Blame an expanded government, as well as expensive new regulations in finance and health care. The U.S. is the only country to record a loss of economic freedom seven straight years in the Heritage Foundation’s Index of Economic Freedom. More than 130 major new federal regulations on starting a business have been added since 2009 at an annual cost of $60 billion, according to the Heritage Foundation.
Ditto. It is all big gov. Heritage has the answers. It only we could get rid of Obama socialism. "Loss of freedom," those expensive new regs. We need the good old days before those expensive new regs. Back when finance and healthcare were less-regulated. $60B --- the evil cripplingness of government. Let us return to the days of yesteryear.
Laughable simplemindedness.
articles.latimes.com/2014/feb/05/business/la-fi-mh-job-lock-20140205
aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/ppi/2015-03/JobLock-Report.pdf
usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/06/obamacare-cbo-numbers-jobs-economy-column/5258933/
@MJG I'm a listophile, as well
Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone!