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I don’t always agree with @JoJo. But a very perceptive observation.
Fortunately, I have an IOS tracker app that’s been running smooth as silk for awhile. But when I have occasion to access the backup tracker at M* it’s like wading through a swamp. First thing you see is: “We’ve made some changes.” And when you try to update the tracker, the technology is comparable to what was “state-of-the art” a quarter century ago. Takes 3 or 4 steps to perform what should only take 1 or 2 steps.
Looks like M* is about as it was, meaning (as far as I can tell) you still cannot get $10k growth from entering ETF and CEF alone (you can for ETN, looks like); you have to again incorporate them in an mfund graph.
So please tell me where else one can see comparatively graphed historical compounded performance of mfund and some ETF / ETN investments (not CEF and individual stocks yet, presumably to come) --- for free?
>> M* is garbage ...So please tell me where else one can see comparatively graphed historical compounded performance of mfund and some ETF / ETN investments (not CEF and individual stocks yet, presumably to come) --- for free?
Free is free. Personally, I’m willing to pay about $35 yearly just for a nice reliable ad-free tracker. The vendor offers additional bells and whistles - but for substantially more money. Personally, I don’t need or want those types of tools. But if you need them and can get them free (well sorta) from M*, than go for it. I qualified the “free” because I’m assuming one has to wade through some ads in order to use the M* features. Time = money.
Ads? I don't see any at M*, due no doubt to my ad-blocker. But the "keep me signed-in" feature is completely dead now--- so my bookmarked page taking me straight to my portfolio doesn't do that anymore. Because I have to sign-in every time. Even after having already checked the box: "keep me signed-in." And after I DO sign-in AGAIN, wonderful, fabulous Morningstar informs me: "You already have premium membership, where would you like to go?" (Next time you tell me something, make it NEWS.) I'm glad for the info. But ACCURATE numbers never appear until the next day, after the previous Market-close. It has always been so. It sucks ass, and not just a little bit, as in days gone by.
“So you have a service that does reinvested-growth graphing and comparison of equities and funds?”
@davidrmoran: Where did I say that? (I didn’t). But I’ll assume that when M* or Lipper or anyone else publishes 3, 5, 10 year returns for a fund they have already included in that figure the dividends paid from shares owned. Re stocks? You’re asking the wrong person. I stick with funds.
I only subscribe to and use my app’s portfolio tracking features. The app is called “Active Portfolio”. You can read reviews online if interested. Or buy it for about $5 and test it with the ads first before paying any upgrade fee. Being an adherent of a diversified allocation model, it’s important to be able to run a variety of portfolios, each covering one of the allocation components (“real assets” for example, contains 4 funds.) Yes - M* also allows that. However, IMHO, with M* it is much harder / time consuming to enter/edit data and the display not as easy to read. Navigating around is slower as well.
Uncertain whether my app developer’s premium features ($99 per year extra) would let you run the kind of comparative analysis you desire. Probably best for you to stick with M*. But heaven knows there’s lots of potential analysis online for those who need it. I’ll occasionally compare fund performances at Lipper or M* out of curiosity. I buy a new fund about once every 3-5 years. So hardly ever need to do the kind of intense research you are into. Pretty happy with the offerings of TRP and D&C - so until one gives me reason to dump them, any new funds I buy are likely to come from their stable.
>> I’m willing to pay about $35 yearly just for a nice reliable ad-free tracker.
My question arose since I was attempting to understand what you meant by the above statement, as I get no ads from M* and they still do $10k-growth as before. For free. No probs.
Turns out you are correct about Lipper, thanks; I did not know that, and they did not used to, I believe,
Speaking of tracking multiple portfolios, I have a traditional IRA plus 3 separate converted Roths. It’s nice to track each of those IRAs separately. Only 1 Roth has satisfied the IRS 5-year holding time. A second one will in January.
I’ll say the developer of the app I mentioned is very good at answering user questions and incorporating suggestions into future updates. I’ve never contacted M*, but get the feeling they’re somewhat hard to work with. However, the developer performed a major upgrade a year ago and the product was quite unreliable for several months. Reason I backup at M*.
Yep - My ad blocker blocks everything at M* except for the annoying ads for their own premium products which delay direct access to other features. Doubt anyone can get rid of them.
I freakin hate the new website. The ONE area I visited was to find out (albeit it was hit or miss) which NTF platforms a fund was sold on. THAT page I can no longer find.
I had never opted for its "alpha" trials. I had ranted about their crap UI changes to come then.
This is what happens when you try to meet "Modern UX Standards". You see, IT companies write software which one HAS to buy because developer resumes will not get padded otherwise. Whatever you had was "legacy" (sic) and now the "enterprise" has to move to the "target" (sic squared) state.
!@#$%^&*
After I have had my single malt tonight I will tell you all how I really feel.
Speaking of tracking multiple portfolios, I have a traditional IRA plus 3 separate converted Roths. It’s nice to track each of those IRAs separately. Only 1 Roth has satisfied the IRS 5-year holding time. A second one will in January.
This is a bit of a sidetrack, but if one is over 59.5, withdrawals of conversion amounts (like other contributions) are both tax free and penalty free.
Unless one withdraws so much in the first five years that one exhausts all contributions and converted amounts, and reaches into earnings, one won't pay the IRS for those withdrawals. So the five year requirement generally is moot, and there's little need to keep the converted accounts separate.
For convenience purposes, because the Roth rules aggregate together all Roth accounts under IRC Section 408A(d)(4)(A), there is no need to keep Roth contributions and conversions in separate accounts, or to otherwise try to separate out multiple types of contributions. The aforementioned ordering rules (principal first, then conversions on a FIFO basis, then earnings) apply in the aggregate across all accounts. So at the most, accounts should only be kept separate if it is necessary/helpful for tracking and accounting
So this morning Morningstar is not letting me sign in at all. Says password is incorrect. So I reset password, and it still says incorrect.
Why am I not surprised? The website has become a cluster-flop..... 12:30 in the afternoon on Sunday. It still will not let me STAY signed-in, but it DID let me in.
M* has been dismissing individual investors for the last 5 years with the staff and governance changes. Many of the old guard have obviously lost the battle and the firm is clearly focused on advisors and small institutions. this is not unlike Vanguard who wants individual investors not to "do it yourself" and to accept their ETFs and MFs as is. Vanguard is making it harder and harder to do your own thinking, and M* apparently doesn't believe we need to.
While still relatively cheap, the only thing that is useful is the portfolio analyzer but you have to wonder how long that will remain functional, as it takes money and time to ensure the data is accurate. Anyone want to bet that is the next thing on the chopping block?
I have used M* for years, since they were on paper, but this is close to the last straw.
@msf - Re: 5 year holding period on Roth conversions -
Thought you might catch that. What you stated agrees with my understanding of IRS rules as well. I’m just being extra cautious in leaving the converted $$ alone for 5 years. Of course, if it was really needed I’d w/d it. Additionally, I think it really simplifies record keeping (for me and my IRA custodians) not to co-mingle converted Roths during the first 5 years.
As far as the 5 years, there’s some suggestions out there that since the holding period is dated from the beginning of the year of conversion, in actuality, the $$ plus earnings could be available penalty-free in as little as 4 years. I’d prefer not to mess with the IRS on either account as it matters little materially to me.
Isn't it time to stop complaining about M* and just not use it anymore? They really don't owe any non-paying customers anything, do they? I think it was Charles who pointed out their business model is or has changed to be a platform for financial advisers who, I'm sure, pay a fee for use. I guess, in effect, the "free" ride is over (agree it would have been nice for them to just say that out right).
@MikeM, Serious query --- do you have a free source that does comparative graphing of mfunds (and thus far some ETFs) with all reinvestment? Meaning $10k growth. Not seeing that the Lipper-Reuters new site (new to me) does comparisons.
Isn't it time to stop complaining about M* and just not use it anymore? They really don't owe any non-paying customers anything, do they? I think it was Charles who pointed out their business model is or has changed to be a platform for financial advisers who, I'm sure, pay a fee for use. I guess, in effect, the "free" ride is over (agree it would have been nice for them to just say that out right).
A valid thought. But there are those of us who are using M* premium at no cost, as a "perk" given to us by TRP. Now, the "premium" service looks like it's been taken over by the Keystone Cops. That is what is so frustrating. Our free benefit surely is somehow being paid for, to M* by TRP, eh? But now the advantages of the premium service are gone--- whether M* just doesn't care about behaving professionally any longer, or whether they've just not gotten around to fixing the mess it has become. A big part of the attraction for me remains because I'm accustomed to finding things in a familiar format. But they've rearranged mostly everything. STILL, it's not been difficult to figure it out. ...Now, if only the g-d website would KEEP me signed-in, when I accept its own offer to DO SO!!!!!
@MikeM, Your point is well taken. They are “free.”
If you deal through a single brokerage, I’m guessing you get a good tracker from them. For us more independent souls, invested with multiple fund houses, it’s tough finding a good reliable tracker that you're comfortable using. (At least for me.)
Yahoo closed theirs down a few years back, stranding those of us who had relied on it for years. Since than I’ve tried dozens both online and at Apple’s app store. None suited me until I hit upon the “active portfolio” app I’ve mentioned before. I appreciate that M*’s is “workable” and that it’s free. I use it as a backup only.
Most apps I’ve tried want to do too much for me, adding unnecessary complexity. I don’t do individual stocks. And I don’t need the tracker computing gains and losses on each fund I own. Just be able to organize & run a half-dozen different portfolios (actually different views of the same bunch of funds).
The “stars” M* awards are interesting. I’d be lying if I said I never pay attention to them. But for quick glances at a fund’s history I much prefer Lipper - not as fancy for sure. And to get a really “outside-the-norm” take on a fund I’ll look at Max Funds. If you can get all 3 of those to agree on a fund’s worth, it’s probably a very good fund.
@Old_Joe, I didn’t mean to slight the valuable resources here. I’m sure no one else intended to either. In truth, I’m a “stick in the mud” kind of guy. I buy a new pair of shoes more often I do a new fund - and a new car almost as often. Point being: My own research / data needs are minimal.
MFO is a class outfit from top to bottom. The monthly commentaries, IMHO, are beyond outstanding. I’m in awe. Often I’m tipped off to upcoming changes in one of my fund’s structure or management by them. Long time favorite, RPGAX, I picked up almost from the opening after @DavidSnowball previewed it and mentioned that it was in registration in one of his commentaries. And let’s not slight all the hard work @Ted does every day. Several here have mentioned in the past how much they benefit from having all those stories served up at one table. Truth is: MFO offers different things to different investors. Ooops! Nearly forgot to mention @TheShadow and all those timely announcements. The list is too long for all the acknowledgements owed.
But, to your point, I do see folks noting how valuable the MFO data base is to them quite often. And, it has to be better than clunky M* for those doing in-depth research.
I hope I’ve sufficiently danced around your point, Sir.
Comments
Fortunately, I have an IOS tracker app that’s been running smooth as silk for awhile. But when I have occasion to access the backup tracker at M* it’s like wading through a swamp. First thing you see is: “We’ve made some changes.” And when you try to update the tracker, the technology is comparable to what was “state-of-the art” a quarter century ago. Takes 3 or 4 steps to perform what should only take 1 or 2 steps.
Looks like M* is about as it was, meaning (as far as I can tell) you still cannot get $10k growth from entering ETF and CEF alone (you can for ETN, looks like); you have to again incorporate them in an mfund graph.
So please tell me where else one can see comparatively graphed historical compounded performance of mfund and some ETF / ETN investments (not CEF and individual stocks yet, presumably to come) --- for free?
That’s a reasonable statement @davidrmoran.
Free is free. Personally, I’m willing to pay about $35 yearly just for a nice reliable ad-free tracker. The vendor offers additional bells and whistles - but for substantially more money. Personally, I don’t need or want those types of tools. But if you need them and can get them free (well sorta) from M*, than go for it. I qualified the “free” because I’m assuming one has to wade through some ads in order to use the M* features. Time = money.
@hank,
So you have a service that does reinvested-growth graphing and comparison of equities and funds? What is it?
I only subscribe to and use my app’s portfolio tracking features. The app is called “Active Portfolio”. You can read reviews online if interested. Or buy it for about $5 and test it with the ads first before paying any upgrade fee. Being an adherent of a diversified allocation model, it’s important to be able to run a variety of portfolios, each covering one of the allocation components (“real assets” for example, contains 4 funds.) Yes - M* also allows that. However, IMHO, with M* it is much harder / time consuming to enter/edit data and the display not as easy to read. Navigating around is slower as well.
Uncertain whether my app developer’s premium features ($99 per year extra) would let you run the kind of comparative analysis you desire. Probably best for you to stick with M*. But heaven knows there’s lots of potential analysis online for those who need it. I’ll occasionally compare fund performances at Lipper or M* out of curiosity. I buy a new fund about once every 3-5 years. So hardly ever need to do the kind of intense research you are into. Pretty happy with the offerings of TRP and D&C - so until one gives me reason to dump them, any new funds I buy are likely to come from their stable.
My question arose since I was attempting to understand what you meant by the above statement, as I get no ads from M* and they still do $10k-growth as before. For free. No probs.
Turns out you are correct about Lipper, thanks; I did not know that, and they did not used to, I believe,
http://www.funds.reuters.wallst.com/US/funds/overview.asp?symbol=dseex
and at Marketwatch they still do not.
The Reuters site permits fund comparisons, too, though not ETFs or stocks, so far as I can discover.
Speaking of tracking multiple portfolios, I have a traditional IRA plus 3 separate converted Roths. It’s nice to track each of those IRAs separately. Only 1 Roth has satisfied the IRS 5-year holding time. A second one will in January.
I’ll say the developer of the app I mentioned is very good at answering user questions and incorporating suggestions into future updates. I’ve never contacted M*, but get the feeling they’re somewhat hard to work with. However, the developer performed a major upgrade a year ago and the product was quite unreliable for several months. Reason I backup at M*.
Yep - My ad blocker blocks everything at M* except for the annoying ads for their own premium products which delay direct access to other features. Doubt anyone can get rid of them.
marketwatch is okay for lipper, but lacks the reinvested data, I think, and there also the direct site, so to speak:
http://www.lipperleaders.com
I had never opted for its "alpha" trials. I had ranted about their crap UI changes to come then.
This is what happens when you try to meet "Modern UX Standards". You see, IT companies write software which one HAS to buy because developer resumes will not get padded otherwise. Whatever you had was "legacy" (sic) and now the "enterprise" has to move to the "target" (sic squared) state.
!@#$%^&*
After I have had my single malt tonight I will tell you all how I really feel.
Unless one withdraws so much in the first five years that one exhausts all contributions and converted amounts, and reaches into earnings, one won't pay the IRS for those withdrawals. So the five year requirement generally is moot, and there's little need to keep the converted accounts separate.
From Kitces:
While still relatively cheap, the only thing that is useful is the portfolio analyzer but you have to wonder how long that will remain functional, as it takes money and time to ensure the data is accurate. Anyone want to bet that is the next thing on the chopping block?
I have used M* for years, since they were on paper, but this is close to the last straw.
Thought you might catch that. What you stated agrees with my understanding of IRS rules as well. I’m just being extra cautious in leaving the converted $$ alone for 5 years. Of course, if it was really needed I’d w/d it. Additionally, I think it really simplifies record keeping (for me and my IRA custodians) not to co-mingle converted Roths during the first 5 years.
As far as the 5 years, there’s some suggestions out there that since the holding period is dated from the beginning of the year of conversion, in actuality, the $$ plus earnings could be available penalty-free in as little as 4 years. I’d prefer not to mess with the IRS on either account as it matters little materially to me.
Serious query --- do you have a free source that does comparative graphing of mfunds (and thus far some ETFs) with all reinvestment? Meaning $10k growth.
Not seeing that the Lipper-Reuters new site (new to me) does comparisons.
If you deal through a single brokerage, I’m guessing you get a good tracker from them. For us more independent souls, invested with multiple fund houses, it’s tough finding a good reliable tracker that you're comfortable using. (At least for me.)
Yahoo closed theirs down a few years back, stranding those of us who had relied on it for years. Since than I’ve tried dozens both online and at Apple’s app store. None suited me until I hit upon the “active portfolio” app I’ve mentioned before. I appreciate that M*’s is “workable” and that it’s free. I use it as a backup only.
Most apps I’ve tried want to do too much for me, adding unnecessary complexity. I don’t do individual stocks. And I don’t need the tracker computing gains and losses on each fund I own. Just be able to organize & run a half-dozen different portfolios (actually different views of the same bunch of funds).
The “stars” M* awards are interesting. I’d be lying if I said I never pay attention to them. But for quick glances at a fund’s history I much prefer Lipper - not as fancy for sure. And to get a really “outside-the-norm” take on a fund I’ll look at Max Funds. If you can get all 3 of those to agree on a fund’s worth, it’s probably a very good fund.
MFO is a class outfit from top to bottom. The monthly commentaries, IMHO, are beyond outstanding. I’m in awe. Often I’m tipped off to upcoming changes in one of my fund’s structure or management by them. Long time favorite, RPGAX, I picked up almost from the opening after @DavidSnowball previewed it and mentioned that it was in registration in one of his commentaries. And let’s not slight all the hard work @Ted does every day. Several here have mentioned in the past how much they benefit from having all those stories served up at one table. Truth is: MFO offers different things to different investors. Ooops! Nearly forgot to mention @TheShadow and all those timely announcements. The list is too long for all the acknowledgements owed.
But, to your point, I do see folks noting how valuable the MFO data base is to them quite often. And, it has to be better than clunky M* for those doing in-depth research.
I hope I’ve sufficiently danced around your point, Sir.