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M* Rekenthaler on Retirement Income

"Aside from Social Security and other pensions, retirees may obtain guaranteed income from 1) traditional bonds, 2) inflation-protected bonds, or 3) annuities. For ease of presentation, this article narrows the list to one version of each: 1) Treasury bonds, 2) ladders of Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities, and 3) single-premium immediate annuities, also known as lifetime annuities....."
https://www.morningstar.com/bonds/retirement-income-treasury-bonds-tips-ladders-or-annuities

Comments

  • A nice, easy to understand comparative article yogi, thanks.

    The article's early suggestion to be able to purchase additional social security benift is one idea I hadn't thought of before. Sure sounds like it could be a great idea, but alas, not likely to happen.
  • edited June 2023
    Annuities just don't make sense to me: the money ceases to be yours, and it becomes THEIRS. A charitable annuity for X amount may be a nifty way to give to a favorite charity, however. Better when rates are higher.
  • edited June 2023
    Crash said:

    Annuities just don't make sense to me: the money ceases to be yours, and it becomes THEIRS. A charitable annuity for X amount may be a nifty way to give to a favorite charity, however. Better when rates are higher.

    That’s been my opinion over the years. But I’m no expert. It always seemed to me they were giving you back your invested sum over time with very little appreciation, if any. Of course, last time I looked interest rates were 1 or 2% on intermediate term bonds. A lot has changed since than. To wit … if you lived to be 120 you’d probably make out like a bandit.

  • It depends.

    Annuities are complex because they are insurance CONTRACTS and come with thick prospectuses. But don't let that fool you.

    Some low-cost accumulating annuities have all-in ERs that are less than those of typical mutual funds.

    Several company and state retirement plans offer annuitized payouts that may be too good to pass up. Some may tie continuing group health coverage to annuitants only, so early retirees, take note. On the commercial side, low-cost SPIAs may be fine. Partial annuitization to meet basic expenses may work for many who don't have time, expertise or aptitude to manage money.

    The flip side is that retirees may be offered lump-sum payout that are more favorable to companies/institutions than retirees. So, think before taking the money and run.

    Like anything, look into details before accepting or rejecting annuities.

    What is bad? Plenty. Many high-cost annuities pay the highest commissions of any product around to salesman/brokers. Some bad players may pitch unnecessary annuity replacements for extra commissions. There may be surrender charges. Many school districts just handover their 403bs to annuity companies and their salesmen to feast. It's a jungle out there.
  • edited June 2023
    ”Many school districts just handover their 403bs to annuity companies and their salesmen to feast. It's a jungle out there.”

    Yes, the term “TSA” is testament to the importance of annuities to early 403Bs for public employees. I’ll double-check, but am pretty certain the 403-B preceded the 401-K. From hazy memory, the public institution where I began work in 1970 offered us either an annuity or the ability to invest in a front loaded Templeton mutual fund of our choice. But, ISTM, the latter was a newer option and that prior to the 70s employees there were limited to a traditional annuity (as described by @Yogibearbull). And thanks Yogi for the interesting additional information.
  • edited June 2023
    @hank @yogibearbull et al
    A unique annuity.
    Fidelity Personal Retirement Annuity
    A 'lite' overview: Fido's annual fee = .25%. There are 55+ fund choices for investments, each having their own ER's. So, if fund 'x' has an ER of .75%, + the .25% fee, ones total annual charge would be 1%.
    Tax deferred growth.
    There may be some changes since I first read through the prospectus several years ago.
    The link will provide the full overview.
    @msf and I discussed this annuity choice several years ago.
    And @hank, if I recall properly, 403B's were pushed by lobbying groups of the insurance companies to become part of the IRS code. 401k's came later.
  • edited June 2023
    403b for educational and nonprofit institutions originated much earlier and had simpler rules.

    401k for corporations came later and accidently. Their rules are more complex and features more restrictive. The fear was that companies with lots of resources would play games with direct-contribution 401k as they did with their direct-benefit pensions. Some 401k reforms only now provide features that were already available in 403b, and many were asking, "So, where is the beef?"

    The insurance industry lobbied hard to include annuities among the default options for auto-signups for 401k/403b but only the TDFs were approved. Most recently, a 401k reform allows income/annuitization within the TDF framework and that has forced cooperation among the fund families and insurance companies (only they can provide annuities).

    Workplace annuity leader TIAA should be mentioned. There are only 8 CREF VAs covering stocks, bonds, hybrid, m-mkt. The ERs for the cheapest R3 class (for large institutions) range from 0.17-0.26% (all-in), while the ERs for the most expensive R1 class (for small institutions) range from 0.41-0.49% (all-in). These are low ERs by any standard. Some workplace plans may have additional plan level fees that vary depending on whether the institutions subsidize 403b program as HR benefit.

    CREF Stock VA is the oldest VA around (1952).

    Of course, TIAA also has general (non-workplace) annuity programs that are much more expensive, but that isn't TIAA's main business.
  • if I recall properly, 403B's were pushed by lobbying groups of the insurance companies to become part of the IRS code. 401k's came later.
    College contributions to participants’ annuities have been “before tax” dollars to the individuals since the start of TIAA [by the Carnegie Foundation] in 1918, as are employer contributions to qualified pension plans. This was formalized in broader amendments to the Internal Revenue Code in 1942. In the 1950s, the School of Medicine at Washington University of St. Louis ... and the Johns Hopkins Medical School offered their medical doctors on the staff an arrangement whereby doctors could designate their entire salary or any part of it as annuity premiums, before taxes. Many doctors jumped at this chance.
    ...
    The IRS became interested, and a high Treasury official, Dan Throop Smith, a former professor at the Harvard Business School, pressed an amendment to the Internal Revenue Code that would limit tax-deferred college contributions to annuities to 10 percent of current salary.
    ...
    The final result was a reasonable compromise, permitting annuity contributions of up to 20 percent of current salary, with a formula for past service. In the Technical Amendments Act of 1958, Congress added Section 403(b) to the Internal Revenue Code as a replacement for all that had gone before in the college world.

    ...But the unexpected development was that the individual could voluntarily elect to fill the rest of the 20 percent if his or her employer was not contributing the full amount. The individual could transform part of his or her salary into “employer contributions” to an annuity under Section 403(b) by so-called salary reduction.
    ...
    Congress established 401(k) plans in 1981, permitting employer-sponsored deferred compensation arrangements within certain parameters.
    https://pensionresearchcouncil.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tiaa04031670.pdf

    Pension plans are little more than annuities funded by employers who put money into them; money that could instead have been used to increase employee pay. Section 403(b) makes this relationship between pension funding and reduced pay more explicit. It lets employees elect to forgo even more of their pay in exchange for greater employer pension contributions. Same as with Keoghs and 401(k) plans that came later.
  • edited June 2023
    401k for corporations came later and accidentally.

    That’s an invitation for further demur ... There were likely many reasons for the 401-K’s emergence - by and large workers’ welfare paramount. But a skeptic might suggest some of the motivation had to do with a desire of big corporations to shed their costly defined benefit pension plans. It also seems to me that the 403B’s growing popularity and success were an important factor leading to the establishment of the 401-K. The rules for the 403-B (as Yogi mentions) weren’t as stringent. In the early 90s I happened upon a read in the WSJ relating how it was possible for 403-B participants to easily transfer funds (while still employed and contributing) to another custodian other than the workplace sanctioned one. Wow! What an eye opener. I doubt many participants knew of that loophole. Transfer I did! That option / loophole was closed sometime around 2000 or a bit later.
  • @hank Does a 1035 exchange ring a bell? Still valid.
  • edited June 2023
    @catch22, 1035 exchanges are for personal annuities.

    Workplace tax-deferred annuities (401k/403b/457b) can be rolled over into T-IRA - in-service cash rollovers if allowed by plans, and cash rollovers on retirement/resignation/termination from jobs.
  • edited June 2023
    catch22 said:

    @hank Does a 1035 exchange ring a bell? Still valid.

    @catch22 - Nope. Simply a “403-B Custodial Transfer.” Odd in the sense that you were still making systematic contributions to the workplace plan and yet could turn right around and transfer that money to a new custodian (ie: another fund house). Partial transfers were allowed. It remained a 403-B and was still subject to all the rules governing them, including age. You simply filled out an app form & mailed it to the new custodian. I ended up, for better or worse, with a handfull of such accounts. Noteworthy - The employer’s name / ID appeared on those new accounts. You weren’t “leaving” the existing plan, but simply widening the scope of investments.

    ISTM that ability stemmed from a loophole in the IRS code. I suspect courts had taken a look at it and chosen not to curtail the process.
  • beebee
    edited June 2023
    Through my State Teachers Retirement System, I learned of a lesser know vehicle known as a 401(a) plan, which was offered on a voluntary basis to individual teachers.

    Wish I had known about it earlier in my career.

    I always felt their was a knowledge vacuum when it came to 403(b) plan choices. More often that not, individual teachers had poor choices. It usually was an uphill battle to try and promote better options. This lead me to look beyond my local 403(b) offerings.

    The 401(a) plan, at the state level, was one of those choices for me. Glad I pursued it.

    https://investopedia.com/terms/1/401a

    401a-plans-rollover-rules
  • @bee. I read the top link you provided. I can't find anything that distinguishes a 401a from a 401k from a 403b that actually matters. I wonder what you're seeing that I'm not seeing? There are some differences regarding what you can and can't invest in, and the vesting period might be longer. But it does not seem like any sort of different animal. What is it that you wish you knew about sooner, as you say?
  • 401a allows employer & employee contribution. So, those could be combo mandatory & optional plans.

    401k/403b are optional plans with employee contributions.

    All of this is under the IRS code section 401 and within it are subsections 401k, 403, 457, 457b.
  • A little too pithy for my poor brain, yogi.
    Lots of 401k plans offer employer matches.......
  • edited June 2023
    Mandatory employer contributions (at universities/colleges & nonprofits) are different from employer matching of optional employee contributions (practically nonexistent at universities/colleges & nonprofits; that is more of 401k thing). Rules for contributions, vesting, withdrawals are different for them.
  • edited June 2023
    Not a fan of Rekenthaler. With 401, 403, 457, it is just another employer option of a variety of mutual funds, some risky and some less risky. When I retired, I transferred all of my 401, 403, 457 holdings into a rollover IRA, so they would be consolidated. As far as "retirement income", you pick all kinds of options on the risk/reward continuum, depending on your portfolio objectives. For years, I chose multisector bond oefs, nontraditonal bond oefs, HY and FR/BL options, Municipal bond oefs, etc. for the monthly dividends they paid, to produce a very nice retirement income on a monthly basis. When the markets started crashing with higher interest rates, I chose to move to CDs, MMs, etc. I will likely go back to some combination of a variety of OEF bond funds and CDs/MMs in the future, but for now I don't feel compelled to latch on to any option unless it meets my low risk criteria for producing "retirement income".
  • beebee
    edited June 2023
    Crash said:

    @bee. I wonder what you're seeing that I'm not seeing? What is it that you wish you knew about sooner, as you say?

    The 401(a) that I was offered was an after tax investment that I could make in addition to my 403(b). This 401(a) “voluntary account” applied a yearly return base on the fund’s previous 10 year rolling average. I liked the strategy… wished I had learned about it earlier.
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