Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
My thoughts exactly, @Sven. Where was the outrage among the passengers when the jack-booted thuggish looking police assaulted the helpless passenger? I kept hoping one of them would stand up kick a cop or take him down. Remember the ditty from the Holocaust? "I didn't do anything when they came for the Gypsies, etc." The fact that the victim of this outrage was an Asian does explain some of the apathy, to the shame of the entire country. I hope that poor man gets a good lawyer (pro bono would be fitting) and goes after everyone at United remotely connected to the creation and implementation of their "policy." I would donate to his cause.
@MFO Members: What do you expect , its Chicago, and if don't get off the plane when they tell you it can happen to you ! Fly The Friendly Skies Of United !!! Regards, Ted United: Fly The Friendly Skies:
1) The flight was not overbooked as first claimed. UA just didn't plan properly on how to manage its crew movement/relocations that day (acc. to Bloomberg article this morning) The airport police botched this situation ... but did the flight crew get on the PA, say the guy was a doctor and needed to get home for work purposes? I'm sure someone would've volunteered if they knew the facts.
2) Post-9/11 security "theater" turned flight crews and rent-a-cop TSA goons into beings that, in the name of "security", MUST BE OBEYED IMMEDIATELY AND ALWAYS NO MATTER WHAT ... because, fear sells.
.... for example, I love how on many flights airlines announce that "congregating" near the restrooms or in the galley areas is prohibited. So, a) how do people stretch their legs for a few minutes (ie, DVT prevention, good health!) or b) queue up for the bathroom short of a constant eyeballing and mad-dash to get there first? In coach, I find this is strictly enforced, but in first or business class, it's more often than not totally fine for 1-2 people to be up waiting for the bathroom. Is that an unspoken perk of paying full-fare premium? (When I fly ... and I've cut back dramatically since 9/11 due to all the bs associated w/US airtravel .... I've since given up flying coach more than 2 hours both due to back issues and moreso on a desire to have a semi-human flying experience.)
Many moons ago, our family of five was going from Detroit to Phoenix on PanAm. In St Louis passengers were asked if they'd be willing to fly to Dallas-Ft Worth and then on to Phoenix instead of non-stop to Phoenix. We said OK as it added only a couple of hours to our trip. Guess what we got? Five tickets to any destination on PanAm's system. The following year we all went to Puerto Rico gratis. Now that's an incentive!
Although overbooking is common, United's reaction was terrible as: it wasn't exactly overbooking since it was for United's employees that passengers were bumped; the employees' destination was a five hour drive from the airport--why not give the employees a rental car?; United could've upped their monetary offer to get passengers to give up their seats but chose not to;normally passengers aren't bumped after already boarding the plane; the forced removal was far too brutal.
1) The flight was not overbooked as first claimed. UA just didn't plan properly on how to manage its crew movement/relocations that day (acc. to Bloomberg article this morning) The airport police botched this situation ... but did the flight crew get on the PA, say the guy was a doctor and needed to get home for work purposes? I'm sure someone would've volunteered if they knew the facts.
2) Post-9/11 security "theater" turned flight crews and rent-a-cop TSA goons into beings that, in the name of "security", MUST BE OBEYED IMMEDIATELY AND ALWAYS NO MATTER WHAT ... because, fear sells.
.... for example, I love how on many flights airlines announce that "congregating" near the restrooms or in the galley areas is prohibited. So, a) how do people stretch their legs for a few minutes (ie, DVT prevention, good health!) or b) queue up for the bathroom short of a constant eyeballing and mad-dash to get there first? In coach, I find this is strictly enforced, but in first or business class, it's more often than not totally fine for 1-2 people to be up waiting for the bathroom. Is that an unspoken perk of paying full-fare premium? (When I fly ... and I've cut back dramatically since 9/11 due to all the bs associated w/US airtravel .... I've since given up flying coach more than 2 hours both due to back issues and moreso on a desire to have a semi-human flying experience.)
When USAirways was still USAirways, here's my own saga: I volunteered to get bumped in Charlotte. It was a stop on the itinerary, on my way to Los Angeles. ... I was given a travel voucher. But just try to USE that travel voucher!... Months later, I called to book a ticket to Burbank. I was told THAT kind of voucher is good only AT THE AIRPORT. So, just show up, and hope for the best? Screw THAT. I drove to a small regional airport served by USAirways, in order to use the voucher, and was given my ticket. When I called to CONFIRM the reservation, I was told I could not depart from THAT airport.
WTF?! At this point, I am a TICKETED passenger. But, no. Screw you. Our ticket means nothing, in effect. So, I was required to fly from the bigger airport in the other direction, which was Buffalo. I finally was able to shake the Filipino agent and get to somebody who was Stateside. I'm sorry, sir. That's how it is. But do you want to fly BACK to Jamestown, rather than Buffalo? YES. Ok, we can do an itinerary with Stop A and Stop B. Oh, but WAIT. No, it won't work, after all... Can you switch to a different day for your return? Yes? OK, then.
So, the return-flight left Burbank. Stop in Phoenix. Stop in Pittsburgh. But as we near P'burgh, I see by my watch that the flight to Jamestown has already departed. So, I had to fly to Buffalo, regardless. And they offered me "compensation." What they should have offered me was a lifetime of no-more-bullshit, anytime, anywhere flights. The airlines suck. But who, ultimately, has oversight? Government agencies, like the FAA. And these government agencies all add-up to one thing: a bad joke. An insult to the public they are supposed to serve.
why don't the officers who dragged the man out go to jail? Because he was in an aeroplane? What if this was a movie theater and accidently more tickets were sold?
Why didn't the airline offer MORE money to see if anyone would want to take them up on their offer?
This is not just about the airline. The security guards don't work for the airline. Or if I'm wrong and they do, they should be sued along with the airline. I am sure the airline can't be sued if they don't employ the airport security.
Airlines overbook. It is first come first served. They shouldn't have drawn "random lots".
And now the most important point. Passengers on that flight. If they have a choice in their flights next time, will they fly with the same airline after experiencing what they saw? Or they thinking "glad it was not me who didn't get dragged out" and forget about it? If they do, then THAT is the only real problem and what occurred was just an incident (which is no doubt how it will be dismissed).
Pie-in-the-sky solution: All the horrified passengers should have stood in protest and blocked the aisle to prevent the cops from removing the man. An act of peaceful civil disobedience, carried out in solidarity by passengers who were all adversely affected by the actions of the lawless cops might have brought the captain and the chief steward to their senses.
I suspect that Republic, who was running the flight for United, is a low-margin, low-pay shop that had no clout with United management. It's harmful for a huge corporation to outsource because the weak, small airline can't afford empty seats, can't say no to the gorilla, and does not have the resources or the skilled personnel to avoid a PR disaster. If you live in Chicago or another United hub, good luck finding a competitor who can get you where you need to go. Consolidation has real downsides.
Last time I visited Chicago, I flew into Midway airport using Southwest Airline. American Airline is another decent airline if you wish to fly into O'Hare Airport.
Never be a hypocrite, but I will do my best to not fly United ever again. As I always say, if you have a choice then make a statement. It is never too late to do that including the passengers of that flight. If we cannot change our behavior we cannot change other people's behavior.
I actually need to fly to Chicago in a couple of months. Thanks for reminding me about Southwest. I see flights and will book.
My first-ever flight was on United, 50 years ago this June. Between then and now I've flown hundreds of United flights. In recent years, though, I've noticed the crudeness creeping in.
Now the crudeness has become blunt brutality. United will never see my face again, nor the faces of the three generations coming along behind me.
United really botched this ... Even before they began the boarding process United knew they needed seats to move a crew and with this should have secured the crew seats before they let any paying customers board and securing their seat with their presence. And, then forceably ejecting a paying passenger after he secured his seat. Something about this is just not right ... and, a good number of people realize this.
I'm thinking United is going to pay up big time over this. I'm also thinking the good doctor needs a good attorney to secure a fair financial remedy since he was injured in the process.
Ask yourself. Do you really want to fly the friendly skies with United? After seeing the viedo clips I think not!
I'm also thinking the doctor is smart by not talking.
Hopefully, the outcome of this will catch the news and not be swept under the carpet.
I never understood why United, or any airline, just doesn't keep a prop-plane ready at all times to move their personnel as a fall-back emergency solution. Especially at one of the largest hubs in the country.
@Old_Skeet: I watched parts of the press conference with Dr. Dao's lawyer. One of his adult daughters also spoke. I think the lawyer is sharp and he gave a good performance. Dr. Dao has a concussion, a broken nose that may require surgery, and two front teeth knocked out. Holy #*@?! The attorney pointed out that the Aviation police, a part of the Chicago PD, are as liable as United. He spoke of hearing from two first-class United passengers who had been seated and then told they had to give up their seats for two "more important" people. Sounded as though there is no dearth of horror stories reaching the law firm now that the victims know where to tell their stories.
Been thinking a lot about this one. A "PR" nightmare for UAL for sure. Nobody should be treated the way the gentleman was - though I'll note that it was Chicago airport police who performed the roughnecking - not UAL employees.
Still, I'm amazed at how routine we have come to take air travel that a single incident like this garners so much attention. We seem to take for granted that hurtling 110,000 pounds+ of metal, fuel, passengers and cargo up to a height of 35,000 feet or more and than bringing it all safely back down to earth is a simple matter. I assure you it is not. It's a tribute to the industry and employees that we've come to take all this for granted - so that we can now focus our outrage on the overbooking issue and subsequent problems it has fostered.
I lived and worked in the Detroit Metro area for many years and was intimately associated with one area family that lost a lovely daughter just out of HS in the crash of Northwest 255 shortly after takeoff from DTW in August 1987, killing 148 passengers and 6 crew members. NTSB concluded improper aircraft operation and "confusion" by the flight crew to have been the primary cause of the accident. (They forgot to deploy the jet's flaps properly for takeoff.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255. Not the worst air disaster by far - but one that really hit home with me.
I guess I'm fortunate that the worst I can recall after more than four decades of air travel are a couple 8 hour delays for mechanical reasons and one flight that was scrubbed completely due to weather. Well ... for better or worse these are my thoughts on the question. As they say: It's all relative.
Been thinking a lot about this one. A "PR" nightmare for UAL for sure. Nobody should be treated the way the gentleman was - though I'll note that it was Chicago airport police who performed the roughnecking - not UAL employees.
Normally, I'd be inclined to cut a company a bit of slack when the conduct in question was not by employees. I might add that even this wasn't even a flight operated by United, but by Republic Airlines branded as United.
Yup, I might say that, except that just two week prior, United had barred girls (non-employees) from flying while wearing leggings. The explanation given was that since they were using United passes (which no one could see), they were representing United. United then reasoned that it could exercise control over people with such tenuous connections to the company in order to protect its brand.
By that reasoning, United should have controlled Republic and the police. In fact, it was obligated to do so to protect its brand. (Which seems rather obvious in hindsight, given the fallout.)
Really enjoyed "Skyfaring: A Journey with a Pilot," by Mark Vanhoenacker. My father was an aviation nut and one of my first memories is flying with him when I was 4 or 5.
Comments from Mr. Munoz, after he came to his senses and stopped issuing mealy-mouthed apologies, suggest that United's culture (and this has been reported in the press) is so rule-bound that no employee can use his/her judgement to intervene when there's a FUBAR. Reports I've read suggest that United, partly due to a clunky merger with Continental, routinely places third or fourth in measures of how the major airlines are performing. Prescribing how to overcome this history is beyond my pay grade, but the current mess cries out for a shake-up from top to bottom. How do you give employees, who must operate within strict safety and regulatory limits, the power to question authority in a crisis? Terrible accidents have occurred (Korean Air, Air France) because no one dared question the captain's decisions. United seems to be more like a massive oil tanker needing to change direction to avoid a crash than a highly sophisticated A380 that can practically fly itself.
Comments
Regards,
Ted
United: Fly The Friendly Skies:
UAL Is A Screaming Buy:
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/ual
1) The flight was not overbooked as first claimed. UA just didn't plan properly on how to manage its crew movement/relocations that day (acc. to Bloomberg article this morning) The airport police botched this situation ... but did the flight crew get on the PA, say the guy was a doctor and needed to get home for work purposes? I'm sure someone would've volunteered if they knew the facts.
2) Post-9/11 security "theater" turned flight crews and rent-a-cop TSA goons into beings that, in the name of "security", MUST BE OBEYED IMMEDIATELY AND ALWAYS NO MATTER WHAT ... because, fear sells.
.... for example, I love how on many flights airlines announce that "congregating" near the restrooms or in the galley areas is prohibited. So, a) how do people stretch their legs for a few minutes (ie, DVT prevention, good health!) or b) queue up for the bathroom short of a constant eyeballing and mad-dash to get there first? In coach, I find this is strictly enforced, but in first or business class, it's more often than not totally fine for 1-2 people to be up waiting for the bathroom. Is that an unspoken perk of paying full-fare premium? (When I fly ... and I've cut back dramatically since 9/11 due to all the bs associated w/US airtravel .... I've since given up flying coach more than 2 hours both due to back issues and moreso on a desire to have a semi-human flying experience.)
Wasn't there a time when overbooking meant that some lucky passengers were going to receive a windfall for giving up their seats?
Regards,
ted
https://theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/united-video-scandal-law/522552/
https://usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/10/overbooking-airlines-fault-passengers-tellusatoday/100305334/
Although overbooking is common, United's reaction was terrible as: it wasn't exactly overbooking since it was for United's employees that passengers were bumped; the employees' destination was a five hour drive from the airport--why not give the employees a rental car?; United could've upped their monetary offer to get passengers to give up their seats but chose not to;normally passengers aren't bumped after already boarding the plane; the forced removal was far too brutal.
I volunteered to get bumped in Charlotte. It was a stop on the itinerary, on my way to Los Angeles. ... I was given a travel voucher. But just try to USE that travel voucher!... Months later, I called to book a ticket to Burbank. I was told THAT kind of voucher is good only AT THE AIRPORT. So, just show up, and hope for the best? Screw THAT. I drove to a small regional airport served by USAirways, in order to use the voucher, and was given my ticket. When I called to CONFIRM the reservation, I was told I could not depart from THAT airport.
WTF?! At this point, I am a TICKETED passenger. But, no. Screw you. Our ticket means nothing, in effect. So, I was required to fly from the bigger airport in the other direction, which was Buffalo. I finally was able to shake the Filipino agent and get to somebody who was Stateside. I'm sorry, sir. That's how it is. But do you want to fly BACK to Jamestown, rather than Buffalo? YES. Ok, we can do an itinerary with Stop A and Stop B. Oh, but WAIT. No, it won't work, after all... Can you switch to a different day for your return? Yes? OK, then.
So, the return-flight left Burbank. Stop in Phoenix. Stop in Pittsburgh. But as we near P'burgh, I see by my watch that the flight to Jamestown has already departed. So, I had to fly to Buffalo, regardless. And they offered me "compensation." What they should have offered me was a lifetime of no-more-bullshit, anytime, anywhere flights. The airlines suck. But who, ultimately, has oversight? Government agencies, like the FAA. And these government agencies all add-up to one thing: a bad joke. An insult to the public they are supposed to serve.
Why didn't the airline offer MORE money to see if anyone would want to take them up on their offer?
This is not just about the airline. The security guards don't work for the airline. Or if I'm wrong and they do, they should be sued along with the airline. I am sure the airline can't be sued if they don't employ the airport security.
Airlines overbook. It is first come first served. They shouldn't have drawn "random lots".
And now the most important point. Passengers on that flight. If they have a choice in their flights next time, will they fly with the same airline after experiencing what they saw? Or they thinking "glad it was not me who didn't get dragged out" and forget about it? If they do, then THAT is the only real problem and what occurred was just an incident (which is no doubt how it will be dismissed).
I suspect that Republic, who was running the flight for United, is a low-margin, low-pay shop that had no clout with United management. It's harmful for a huge corporation to outsource because the weak, small airline can't afford empty seats, can't say no to the gorilla, and does not have the resources or the skilled personnel to avoid a PR disaster. If you live in Chicago or another United hub, good luck finding a competitor who can get you where you need to go. Consolidation has real downsides.
Never be a hypocrite, but I will do my best to not fly United ever again. As I always say, if you have a choice then make a statement. It is never too late to do that including the passengers of that flight. If we cannot change our behavior we cannot change other people's behavior.
I actually need to fly to Chicago in a couple of months. Thanks for reminding me about Southwest. I see flights and will book.
Here is a very detailed and balanced perspective on how and why US airlines have deteriorated to the pathetic service levels we experience today:
»»» Link to MFO Post
Now the crudeness has become blunt brutality. United will never see my face again, nor the faces of the three generations coming along behind me.
Archaic
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/technology/how-technology-has-failed-to-improve-your-airline-experience.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/technology/how-technology-has-failed-to-improve-your-airline-experience.html
I'm thinking United is going to pay up big time over this. I'm also thinking the good doctor needs a good attorney to secure a fair financial remedy since he was injured in the process.
Ask yourself. Do you really want to fly the friendly skies with United? After seeing the viedo clips I think not!
I'm also thinking the doctor is smart by not talking.
Hopefully, the outcome of this will catch the news and not be swept under the carpet.
Still, I'm amazed at how routine we have come to take air travel that a single incident like this garners so much attention. We seem to take for granted that hurtling 110,000 pounds+ of metal, fuel, passengers and cargo up to a height of 35,000 feet or more and than bringing it all safely back down to earth is a simple matter. I assure you it is not. It's a tribute to the industry and employees that we've come to take all this for granted - so that we can now focus our outrage on the overbooking issue and subsequent problems it has fostered.
I lived and worked in the Detroit Metro area for many years and was intimately associated with one area family that lost a lovely daughter just out of HS in the crash of Northwest 255 shortly after takeoff from DTW in August 1987, killing 148 passengers and 6 crew members. NTSB concluded improper aircraft operation and "confusion" by the flight crew to have been the primary cause of the accident. (They forgot to deploy the jet's flaps properly for takeoff.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255. Not the worst air disaster by far - but one that really hit home with me.
I guess I'm fortunate that the worst I can recall after more than four decades of air travel are a couple 8 hour delays for mechanical reasons and one flight that was scrubbed completely due to weather. Well ... for better or worse these are my thoughts on the question. As they say: It's all relative.
https://www.yahoo.com/style/united-airlines-kicks-couple-off-plane-en-route-wedding-181721817.html
Yup, I might say that, except that just two week prior, United had barred girls (non-employees) from flying while wearing leggings. The explanation given was that since they were using United passes (which no one could see), they were representing United. United then reasoned that it could exercise control over people with such tenuous connections to the company in order to protect its brand.
By that reasoning, United should have controlled Republic and the police. In fact, it was obligated to do so to protect its brand. (Which seems rather obvious in hindsight, given the fallout.)
Comments from Mr. Munoz, after he came to his senses and stopped issuing mealy-mouthed apologies, suggest that United's culture (and this has been reported in the press) is so rule-bound that no employee can use his/her judgement to intervene when there's a FUBAR. Reports I've read suggest that United, partly due to a clunky merger with Continental, routinely places third or fourth in measures of how the major airlines are performing. Prescribing how to overcome this history is beyond my pay grade, but the current mess cries out for a shake-up from top to bottom. How do you give employees, who must operate within strict safety and regulatory limits, the power to question authority in a crisis? Terrible accidents have occurred (Korean Air, Air France) because no one dared question the captain's decisions. United seems to be more like a massive oil tanker needing to change direction to avoid a crash than a highly sophisticated A380 that can practically fly itself.