Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Thanks @Observant1 / Grateful for whatever lineman ventured out in this storm to restore power. Do have a generator - but limited amount of fuel on hand.
My gas furnace stopped working Friday. Although there were no prior issues, the furnace is over 30 years old — it's on borrowed time! An HVAC tech came out on Saturday and fixed it (several issues) but it may fail again at any moment. I need to buy a new furnace soon...
114k households are without power. Some of these households have power outages from a prior storm from a few days ago.
About 50 sections of major highways, downstate and the UP; are closed by order of the Michigan State Police.
Measurement data from lake sensors is expected to show the largest ever recorded wave heights on Lake Superior.
Lake Erie and other great lakes with similar exposure will have beach water levels drop 3-6 feet from the high winds literally pushing the water into other parts of the lake.
We have power, but the high winds are nasty and dangerously bitter. The already fallen snow is being moved about in all directions, changing its location every hour. The snow drift that existed in one location has moved, now exposing some bare, frozen ground.
I salute the dangerous work of the utility workers having to make outside repairs. Many repairs will not be made until the wind subsides.
A search will reveal today, or in coming days; the enormous wave action in Lake Superior, against some of the granite shorelines.
Appreciate all the comments. Glad you're warm and safe @catch22. Nasty across the state.
I forgot to mention earlier that several hours of freezing rain preceded the snow event. That, combined with high winds, is what knocked out power. Was really surprised when it came back on mid-day. Didn't think they'd send crews out in this mess.
Hey there hank- remember that we ain't as young as we used to be. Like the man said- be careful out there.
Right you are Sir. I didn't expect to shovel, but just to get into the garage to start the generator this morning I did some shoveling. Damn heavy snow too.
@hank- Nothing close to your snow storm, but last week we had a pretty decent "atmospheric river" (we used to call those a "pineapple express"). Took out the power over a very wide area up at the Russian River from late Tuesday through early Friday. We have a nice little generator that runs on either gasoline or propane. The generator is set up to backfeed through the main circuit breaker panel so it can power the whole house. The only load that the gen can't handle is the 220volt water heater. We used a crock pot to keep enough water hot to wash the dishes and keep reasonably clean.
The gen is up on the 20' high raised house (flood safety) so I don't want any gasoline up there. Fortunately we have piped-in propane, so we were warm and well-fed for Christmas.
I'm tempted to say "wrong beverage". Friend and I would take a pint of brandy along. Have a few drinks, cut a few holes in the ice, catch a couple fish and after an hour head to the local tavern where was much warmer.
But I do remember driving north to the cabin on winter nights and needing to blow out the driveway at 10 PM. Sometimes a can of beer in the hand while working would turn to slush before you could finish the job.
hahaha. You are 100% correct! And brandy IS the WI State beverage.
There were storms in the Chicago area, back in the 1960s and 1970s, which were epic. Driving with orange foam balls on antennas, because you couldn't see around corners, or to exit a driveway. So much snow that cars were buried completely and the plows had to create zig-zag patterns around the stranded vehicles. People leaving a vehicle on the roadside and returning with only a vague idea where it was parked.
In Jan 1979 everyone who had a truck, added a plow and made money, hand-over-fist. 29" peak snow with 40 MPH winds, the blizzard lasted 38 hours. As to plowing, it was similar to how they describe painting at Disneyworld: as soon as you finish, you start over. Many bought a big 4X4, only to not see another big storm for several years. By "many", I mean me.
One year, my mother saw on the news that roofs were collapsing. These were flat roofs, but there was no assuaging her fears. She insisted I go up and shovel the roof. My bud had a work van with ladders on top and volunteered to help. We tied a long rope onto the bumper and went up to push snow off. It was rather comical because the edge of the roof was only about 6' from some drifts. Safety measures were somewhat irrelevant. Except he said that he would not leave the keys in the ignition, in case someone tried to steal the van and drive off with one of us attached. lol
Nice setup @Old_Joe. I should look into something similar. Heat with propane here. A 500 gallon "pig" on the property. So would be easy to power a generator with it. I have a 25 year old Honda gas only generator. Damn things don't wear out because get so little use. . I believe it puts out 2800 watts AC only. I take care not to run more than 1 major appliance / motor all at once. It will push either the furnace or the water pump (from the well). I wouldn't run both together.
I really feel for many caught off guard. Many with no power across the state. In these temps (low 20s) there will be many busted water pipes. (A plumber's dream I suppose). My own concern was that some sections of my roof have electric heating cables (rated 1100 watts) to prevent ice dams. It's complicated, but melting snow tends to re-freeze along the edge of the roof and create dams which can cause water to backup behind and result in severe leaks. So the electric cables allow the water to drain off. Never anticipated powering that with my little generator. Theoretically, it should be able to power it.
@hank- Nothing close to your snow storm, but last week we had a pretty decent "atmospheric river" (we used to call those a "pineapple express"). Took out the power up over a very wide area up at the Russian River from late Tuesday through early Friday. We have a nice little generator that runs on either gasoline or propane. The generator is set up to backfeed through the main circuit breaker panel so it can power the whole house. The only load that the gen can't handle is the 220volt water heater. We used a crock pot to keep enough water hot to wash the dishes and keep reasonably clean.
The gen is up on the 20' high raised house (flood safety) so I don't want any gasoline up there. Fortunately we have piped-in propane, so we were warm and well-fed for Christmas.
@hank- We have a Champion generator similar to one of these (our model is apparently no longer available). There are a number of factors to consider on this. If you decide to get a new gen, give me a private message and we can talk about that.
My gas furnace stopped working Friday. Although there were no prior issues, the furnace is over 30 years old — it's on borrowed time! An HVAC tech came out on Saturday and fixed it (several issues) but it may fail again at any moment. I need to buy a new furnace soon...
I have learned a few HVAC tricks over the years. Most failures are due to ignitors or flame sensors. If the furnace starts and runs for 30-60 seconds, lights the burner then shuts down, that is defined as a 'short cycle" and almost always due to the flame sensor not sensing the flame.
If it starts and shuts down without actually igniting the burner and you smell gas, that is a bad ignitor almost certainly. The real trick is understanding the particular furnace's start-up sequence, and noting when it diverges. If the door to the "guts" is open, you may need to trick the door switch into thinking the door is closed. Some furnaces have an LED that will tell you what caused the shut down.
If you see the ignitor or pilot flame, but no burner flame, then the gas valve did not activate. Bad gas valve or the control circuit was interrupted - which could be due to a failed safety switch or wiring.
Other causes can be a problem with the blower motor which will trigger a "high-limit" which will halt the start-up progression, due to high heat in the heat exchanger. Or an inductor motor that doesn't start running to create proper up-flow. That will "inform" the unit to stop before much of anything else is allowed to progress.
I have accumulated ignitors, flame sensors, gas valves, limit switches, rollout switches (detect when the flame is outside the normal location) and the specs for each of these items to test functionality. Plus, a DVM and an ammeter. I learned that when a furnace fails, it is usually -10 degrees, and hard to get anyone to the home.
18" since midnight. Constant 40-45 mph winds off the lake with gusts to 55. Lost power several hours but on now. Playing with the blower will have to wait until tomorrow.
Wow, that IS quite a storm. Glad power was restored rapidly
To elaborate a bit, the igniter is the part which develops a fairly high voltage which is fed to a small device which generates a sparking (arcing) near the burner.
If the heat sensor detects successful ignition, it sends that information to a control timer which must receive that signal within a predetermined amount of time.
And yes, both of those are usually the culprits.
With respect to the motors, the small "upflow" motor initiates proper updraft for the exhaust fumes. There's also an updraft sensor switch: if either the motor or the sensor switch fails, the furnace will not ignite.
The blower motor is the fairly large motor which pushes the heat from the heat exchanger out through the various ducts and vents. In my experience blower motors typically will start getting quite noisy before total failure- usually it's the cheap motor bearings which go first. These motors also typically have a capacitor, which can sometimes be another point of failure.
Many of those replacement parts are available through the Grainger Supply company.
However: time takes it's toll on all things, and 30 years is about right for a furnace. We just replaced ours rather than repair it because of the local nutjob regulators who think that every house can easily replace a furnace with an alternative heat pump system.
An ignitor can either be a spark, or more commonly, simply a glowing rod. A working ignitor rod would measure between 5-15 ohms (out of circuit), usually. If your furnace is so old it has a pilot flame, buy a new furnace! lol
The upflow/updraft/inductor fan usually has a couple rubbery hoses going to it that are used to detect its operation via pressure to a diaphragm switch. Making it easy to identify. Those hoses can develop leaks or blockage too. And should be inspected periodically. A failure in that subsystem would stop the furnace well before it even attempted to activate the ignitor. In under 30 seconds.
My neighbor had an issue while traveling and I went to look at his furnace for him. It was an unusual problem. The high limit switch was triggering shutdown, but no obvious cause that I could detect. Turned out that the main blower had developed bearing issues that were preventing good airflow. Strangely, not a sound from it. And you could hear it operate at the proper time - right after successful burner ignition.
That one was a great leaning experience. We have similar furnaces and his has gotten wet internally. He opted for a new furnace, as the control board had also gotten wet. I stripped it of parts after the removal! Treasure.
"I have learned a few HVAC tricks over the years. Most failures are due to ignitors or flame sensors. If the furnace starts and runs for 30-60 seconds, lights the burner then shuts down, that is defined as a 'short cycle" and almost always due to the flame sensor not sensing the flame."
Thanks for the tips. I cleaned the flame sensor and tried "resetting" the furnace by executing the shutdown/startup procedure. The inducer motor started (1st step) but the ignitor did not start glowing (2nd step). The HVAC tech said the heat exchangers were cracked. Thankfully, there was no CO exposure. He reset one of the limit switches — the furnace ran for several minutes but stopped again. Upon further investigation, the pressure switch exhibited intermittent failures and was replaced. There have been no problems since but I'm still concerned about potential furnace failures. The heat exchanger kit appears to cost approximately $2,000 online and reports indicate that replacement is a major, time-consuming repair. It's probably best to just replace my 31 year-old furnace.
The fact that the ignitor never glowed was an indication of an open safety circuit. That would be the failure to detect the inducer fan running. Hence, the faulty diaphragm switch. It never acknowledged the pressure from the inducer fan to the controller. So, the controller halted the sequence.
Had you gotten flame from the burners and then shutdown in 5 seconds or so, then a dirty or failed flame sensor would be highly suspect. I.e. - Inducer start up > ignitor glows > burners light > 1- 5 seconds and shutdown. Flame sensors are a little tricky to test. They operate on the basis of alien technology from captured spacecraft at Area 51.
A cracked heat exchanger is plenty good reason to replace. Almost no one replaces those. I have watched a procedure and could, but would not, do it. Or pay someone to do it on an old furnace. A cracked heat exchanger is usually discovered by inspecting the flame during operation. It should not be orangish, uneven or fluttering about. That implies unintended airflow disruption (a leak).
We're all in agreement here. If the heat exchanger has failed from old age everything else is at the limits of useful life also. BTW, the igniter system that I described uses a high-voltage spark. That's a totally different and much older type than the glow igniter. Showing my age a bit here. I sometimes wonder if I'm getting close to my useful service life.
Comments
Although there were no prior issues, the furnace is over 30 years old — it's on borrowed time!
An HVAC tech came out on Saturday and fixed it (several issues) but it may fail again at any moment.
I need to buy a new furnace soon...
114k households are without power. Some of these households have power outages from a prior storm from a few days ago.
About 50 sections of major highways, downstate and the UP; are closed by order of the Michigan State Police.
Measurement data from lake sensors is expected to show the largest ever recorded wave heights on Lake Superior.
Lake Erie and other great lakes with similar exposure will have beach water levels drop 3-6 feet from the high winds literally pushing the water into other parts of the lake.
We have power, but the high winds are nasty and dangerously bitter.
The already fallen snow is being moved about in all directions, changing its location every hour. The snow drift that existed in one location has moved, now exposing some bare, frozen ground.
I salute the dangerous work of the utility workers having to make outside repairs. Many repairs will not be made until the wind subsides.
A search will reveal today, or in coming days; the enormous wave action in Lake Superior, against some of the granite shorelines.
I forgot to mention earlier that several hours of freezing rain preceded the snow event. That, combined with high winds, is what knocked out power. Was really surprised when it came back on mid-day. Didn't think they'd send crews out in this mess. Right you are Sir. I didn't expect to shovel, but just to get into the garage to start the generator this morning I did some shoveling. Damn heavy snow too.
The gen is up on the 20' high raised house (flood safety) so I don't want any gasoline up there. Fortunately we have piped-in propane, so we were warm and well-fed for Christmas.
Driving with orange foam balls on antennas, because you couldn't see around corners, or to exit a driveway. So much snow that cars were buried completely and the plows had to create zig-zag patterns around the stranded vehicles. People leaving a vehicle on the roadside and returning with only a vague idea where it was parked.
In Jan 1979 everyone who had a truck, added a plow and made money, hand-over-fist. 29" peak snow with 40 MPH winds, the blizzard lasted 38 hours. As to plowing, it was similar to how they describe painting at Disneyworld: as soon as you finish, you start over. Many bought a big 4X4, only to not see another big storm for several years. By "many", I mean me.
One year, my mother saw on the news that roofs were collapsing. These were flat roofs, but there was no assuaging her fears. She insisted I go up and shovel the roof. My bud had a work van with ladders on top and volunteered to help. We tied a long rope onto the bumper and went up to push snow off. It was rather comical because the edge of the roof was only about 6' from some drifts. Safety measures were somewhat irrelevant. Except he said that he would not leave the keys in the ignition, in case someone tried to steal the van and drive off with one of us attached. lol
I really feel for many caught off guard. Many with no power across the state. In these temps (low 20s) there will be many busted water pipes. (A plumber's dream I suppose). My own concern was that some sections of my roof have electric heating cables (rated 1100 watts) to prevent ice dams. It's complicated, but melting snow tends to re-freeze along the edge of the roof and create dams which can cause water to backup behind and result in severe leaks. So the electric cables allow the water to drain off. Never anticipated powering that with my little generator. Theoretically, it should be able to power it.
Dual Fuel Champion Generators at Amazon
I have learned a few HVAC tricks over the years. Most failures are due to ignitors or flame sensors. If the furnace starts and runs for 30-60 seconds, lights the burner then shuts down, that is defined as a 'short cycle" and almost always due to the flame sensor not sensing the flame.
If it starts and shuts down without actually igniting the burner and you smell gas, that is a bad ignitor almost certainly. The real trick is understanding the particular furnace's start-up sequence, and noting when it diverges. If the door to the "guts" is open, you may need to trick the door switch into thinking the door is closed. Some furnaces have an LED that will tell you what caused the shut down.
If you see the ignitor or pilot flame, but no burner flame, then the gas valve did not activate. Bad gas valve or the control circuit was interrupted - which could be due to a failed safety switch or wiring.
Other causes can be a problem with the blower motor which will trigger a "high-limit" which will halt the start-up progression, due to high heat in the heat exchanger. Or an inductor motor that doesn't start running to create proper up-flow. That will "inform" the unit to stop before much of anything else is allowed to progress.
I have accumulated ignitors, flame sensors, gas valves, limit switches, rollout switches (detect when the flame is outside the normal location) and the specs for each of these items to test functionality. Plus, a DVM and an ammeter. I learned that when a furnace fails, it is usually -10 degrees, and hard to get anyone to the home.
If the heat sensor detects successful ignition, it sends that information to a control timer which must receive that signal within a predetermined amount of time.
And yes, both of those are usually the culprits.
With respect to the motors, the small "upflow" motor initiates proper updraft for the exhaust fumes. There's also an updraft sensor switch: if either the motor or the sensor switch fails, the furnace will not ignite.
The blower motor is the fairly large motor which pushes the heat from the heat exchanger out through the various ducts and vents. In my experience blower motors typically will start getting quite noisy before total failure- usually it's the cheap motor bearings which go first. These motors also typically have a capacitor, which can sometimes be another point of failure.
Many of those replacement parts are available through the Grainger Supply company.
However: time takes it's toll on all things, and 30 years is about right for a furnace. We just replaced ours rather than repair it because of the local nutjob regulators who think that every house can easily replace a furnace with an alternative heat pump system.
A bit more for anyone interested:
An ignitor can either be a spark, or more commonly, simply a glowing rod. A working ignitor rod would measure between 5-15 ohms (out of circuit), usually. If your furnace is so old it has a pilot flame, buy a new furnace! lol
The upflow/updraft/inductor fan usually has a couple rubbery hoses going to it that are used to detect its operation via pressure to a diaphragm switch. Making it easy to identify. Those hoses can develop leaks or blockage too. And should be inspected periodically. A failure in that subsystem would stop the furnace well before it even attempted to activate the ignitor. In under 30 seconds.
My neighbor had an issue while traveling and I went to look at his furnace for him. It was an unusual problem. The high limit switch was triggering shutdown, but no obvious cause that I could detect. Turned out that the main blower had developed bearing issues that were preventing good airflow. Strangely, not a sound from it. And you could hear it operate at the proper time - right after successful burner ignition.
That one was a great leaning experience. We have similar furnaces and his has gotten wet internally. He opted for a new furnace, as the control board had also gotten wet. I stripped it of parts after the removal! Treasure.
Good thinking!!!
Most failures are due to ignitors or flame sensors.
If the furnace starts and runs for 30-60 seconds, lights the burner then shuts down,
that is defined as a 'short cycle" and almost always due to the flame sensor not sensing the flame."
@DrVenture,
Thanks for the tips. I cleaned the flame sensor and tried "resetting" the furnace
by executing the shutdown/startup procedure. The inducer motor started (1st step)
but the ignitor did not start glowing (2nd step). The HVAC tech said the heat exchangers were cracked.
Thankfully, there was no CO exposure.
He reset one of the limit switches — the furnace ran for several minutes but stopped again.
Upon further investigation, the pressure switch exhibited intermittent failures and was replaced.
There have been no problems since but I'm still concerned about potential furnace failures.
The heat exchanger kit appears to cost approximately $2,000 online
and reports indicate that replacement is a major, time-consuming repair.
It's probably best to just replace my 31 year-old furnace.
I totally agree that a 30-year old furnace should probably be retired (with honors).
The fact that the ignitor never glowed was an indication of an open safety circuit. That would be the failure to detect the inducer fan running. Hence, the faulty diaphragm switch. It never acknowledged the pressure from the inducer fan to the controller. So, the controller halted the sequence.
Had you gotten flame from the burners and then shutdown in 5 seconds or so, then a dirty or failed flame sensor would be highly suspect. I.e. - Inducer start up > ignitor glows > burners light > 1- 5 seconds and shutdown. Flame sensors are a little tricky to test. They operate on the basis of alien technology from captured spacecraft at Area 51.
A cracked heat exchanger is plenty good reason to replace. Almost no one replaces those. I have watched a procedure and could, but would not, do it. Or pay someone to do it on an old furnace. A cracked heat exchanger is usually discovered by inspecting the flame during operation. It should not be orangish, uneven or fluttering about. That implies unintended airflow disruption (a leak).
I am sure you just need a thorough cleaning and tune up @Old_Joe